Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[tabibito]

2 Maccabees 12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by his belief in the resurrection.

44 For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,

45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. Hence, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.

[TimelessTheist]

2 Maccabees 12:43-46 teaches it is ok to pray to dead people.

Pray 'for' the dead, not to the dead. Seriously, foudroyant, get your act together.

[foudroyant]

2 Maccabees 12:43-46 teaches it is ok to pray to dead people.

[TimelessTheist]

Once again not Scripture.

It contradicts Psalm 65:2.

As well as Romans 8:26-27 - which no one responded to. Not surprised.

You never even made a statement regarding Maccabees before this one. How does it contradict those two passages?

[foudroyant]

Once again, Maccabees.

Once again not Scripture.

It contradicts Psalm 65:2.

As well as Romans 8:26-27 - which no one responded to. Not surprised.

[foudroyant]

Calvin is using the Masoretic vocalization to try to make a polemical doctrinal point. Not the best way read scripture, is it? The polemical doctrinal point is lost if you understand the Hebrew as an imperative simply asking God to listen and answer prayer as can be seen from the context and the more ancient reading of the Hebrew in the LXX. Should one say that flocks and meadows also sing a hymn or pray a psalm to God based on this psalm? Would that be good doctrine? If the meadows and flocks can sing a hymn to God along with us, surely the angels and saints in heaven can do so as well. To use psalms of praise of God to make polemical doctrinal points against religious enemies sort of misses the real meaning of worship.

To thee all flesh shall come. This refers to worship. People go to God in prayer which is worship.
All the rest of creation of impersonal things anthropomorphically gives praise to God so your point misses what the text is saying.
God can hear all prayers - even silent ones - by myriads of people with a vast array of requests, for any length of time at any period of time and fully understand them.

Can anyone else do the same?
Nope.


You didn't address Romans 8:26-27.
Post #797
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page80

[TimelessTheist]

Yeah keep pounding your head against the wall and perhaps it will knock some sense into it because you can't produce a single passage which shows prayer is not worship.

The Bible makes it clear that prayer is worship....100% of the time...but you heretics come along and teach otherwise. Yeah you figured out that you can pray to something/someone other than God. Total arrogance and stupidity on your part.


Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079, David Noel Freedman, Editor).

Once again, Maccabees.

[robrecht]

Psalm 65:2
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. (KJV)

"The hearer of prayer" is an appellation of God that belongs exclusively to Him in that it demonstrates His omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.
a. Calvin: The Psalmist does not say, that God has heard prayer in this or that instance, but gives him the name of the hearer of prayer, as what constitutes an abiding part of his glory, so that he might as soon deny himself as shut his ear to our petitions. Could we only impress this upon our minds, that it is something peculiar to God, and inseparable from him, to hear prayer, it would inspire us with unfailing confidence. The power of helping us he can never want, so that nothing can stand in the way of a successful issue of our supplications.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65
b. Gill: O thou that hearest prayer,.... So as to answer it sooner or later, in one way or another, and always in the fittest time, and in the best way; so as to fulfil the requests and supply the wants of men, so far as may be for their good, and God's glory; which is a proof of the omnipresence, omniscience, and all sufficiency of God; who can hear the prayers of his people in all places at the same time, and knows all their persons and wants, and what is most proper for them, and can and does supply all their needs, and causes all grace to abound towards them; and it also shows his wondrous grace and condescension, to listen to the cries and regard the prayers of the poor and destitute
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65
c. A. F. Kirkpatrick: O thou that hearest prayer] God is thus addressed, because He has given His people cause for the present thanksgiving by hearing their prayers. But the words are more than a reference to a particular answer to prayer. They proclaim that it is His inalienable attribute, His ‘nature and property,’ to hear and answer prayer. (The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/cam.../psalms/65.htm
d. Whedon: Thou that hearest prayer—A recognition of deity which gratitude dictates and experience attests
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65
e. Kretzmann: O Thou that hearest prayer, this being the special attribute of God
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65

Only God is to be prayed to.

Calvin is using the Masoretic vocalization to try to make a polemical doctrinal point. Not the best way read scripture, is it? The polemical doctrinal point is lost if you understand the Hebrew as an imperative simply asking God to listen and answer prayer as can be seen from the context and the more ancient reading of the Hebrew in the LXX. Should one say that flocks and meadows also sing a hymn or pray a psalm to God based on this psalm? Would that be good doctrine? If the meadows and flocks can sing a hymn to God along with us, surely the angels and saints in heaven can do so as well. To use psalms of praise of God to make polemical doctrinal points against religious enemies sort of misses the real meaning of worship.

[foudroyant]

Romans 8:26-27
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (NASB)

It does take being the "heart-knower of all" (omniscience) to be the recipient of prayer. For it is by searching the hearts that God knows what the mind of the Holy Spirit is when we pray. If you aren't the heart-knower of all then you can not properly be the recipient of prayer.

[foudroyant]

Psalm 65:2
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come. (KJV)

"The hearer of prayer" is an appellation of God that belongs exclusively to Him in that it demonstrates His omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.
a. Calvin: The Psalmist does not say, that God has heard prayer in this or that instance, but gives him the name of the hearer of prayer, as what constitutes an abiding part of his glory, so that he might as soon deny himself as shut his ear to our petitions. Could we only impress this upon our minds, that it is something peculiar to God, and inseparable from him, to hear prayer, it would inspire us with unfailing confidence. The power of helping us he can never want, so that nothing can stand in the way of a successful issue of our supplications.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65
b. Gill: O thou that hearest prayer,.... So as to answer it sooner or later, in one way or another, and always in the fittest time, and in the best way; so as to fulfil the requests and supply the wants of men, so far as may be for their good, and God's glory; which is a proof of the omnipresence, omniscience, and all sufficiency of God; who can hear the prayers of his people in all places at the same time, and knows all their persons and wants, and what is most proper for them, and can and does supply all their needs, and causes all grace to abound towards them; and it also shows his wondrous grace and condescension, to listen to the cries and regard the prayers of the poor and destitute
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65
c. A. F. Kirkpatrick: O thou that hearest prayer] God is thus addressed, because He has given His people cause for the present thanksgiving by hearing their prayers. But the words are more than a reference to a particular answer to prayer. They proclaim that it is His inalienable attribute, His ‘nature and property,’ to hear and answer prayer. (The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges)
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/cam.../psalms/65.htm
d. Whedon: Thou that hearest prayer—A recognition of deity which gratitude dictates and experience attests
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65
e. Kretzmann: O Thou that hearest prayer, this being the special attribute of God
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=18&ch=65

Only God is to be prayed to.

[foudroyant]

That you regard truth as a thing that "stinks something horrendously nasty" is, of course, only to be expected.

Truth: Every prayer in the Bible is worship.

[tabibito]

I first cited it correctly.
Next I added to the definition that would accommodate your heresy.

I knew what you were doing with that lame block-capitals comment.

What a bunch of garbage and vomit you put out.
It stinks something horrendously nasty.

That you regard truth as a thing that "stinks something horrendously nasty" is, of course, only to be expected.

[foudroyant]

I first cited it correctly.
Next I added to the definition that would accommodate your heresy.

[tabibito]

In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature AND SOMETIMES CREATURE AND CREATURE are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership.

That's your mythical rendition.


What a bunch of garbage and vomit you put out.
It stinks something horrendously nasty.

You have so little respect for the truth that you will misrepresent the contents of theological dictionaries if it suits your purpose, and so little respect for God that you will even go so far as to misrepresent the contents of scripture. I hardly expect that you will treat what I say any differently.

[foudroyant]

Eerdman's dictionary doesn't claim that to be the sole purpose of prayer. It simply explains the primary purpose of prayer directed to God. You're making false claims about what the dictionary says.
The Bible never defines prayer as worship. It even records that people pray while they are worshipping. You're making false claims about what the Bible says.

In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature AND SOMETIMES CREATURE AND CREATURE are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership.

That's your mythical rendition.


What a bunch of garbage and vomit you put out.
It stinks something horrendously nasty.