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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • #181
    It has been shown that prayer is due unto God alone.
    Greek dictionaries and lexicons have been repeatedly cited.
    It is possible to προσεθχομαι anyone for anything. The word means pray or petition. "Prithee tell me / give me / help me" is not an act of worship.
    You cannot acknowledge the fact that these dictionaries and lexicons you are so fond of include propaganda in their entries. The problem is yours.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-28-2014, 10:41 PM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment

    • #182
      Your words:

      No formal qualifications in Koine Greek whatever.
      http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...y-Spirit/page6

      Post #53


      It shows - for proseuchomai is never used in the NT the way you erroneously describe.
      Last edited by foudroyant; 07-28-2014, 11:13 PM.

      Comment

      • #183
        It shows - for proseuchomai is never used in the NT the way you erroneously describe.
        Proseuchomai is never used in the New Testament in the way that I describe. The New Testament is hardly the sum of Koine Greek usage.

        You read the bible with other people's tongues instead of your own eyes - and think that qualifies you as an accuser and judge of the brethren. To the best of my knowledge (and hopefully I am wrong) - no one can disagree with you on a point of scripture or doctrine without that you vilify him (or her).
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment

        • #184
          There are no examples that this word is used the way you describe in the NT.

          You want to make up the meanings of words then go ahead. The serious Bible student will know better than to do that.


          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...y-Spirit/page2
          Posts #12 and #13

          37818 disagreed with me concerning the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

          Where did I vilify him?

          Comment

          • #185
            You want to make up the meanings of words then go ahead.
            I'm not the one making up meanings. The only time people in the New Testament are said to pray is when they pray to Christ or God. I never said otherwise. προσευχομαι however, means pray. And others can be prayed to - the New Testament never records such an event.

            37818 disagreed with me concerning the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

            Where did I vilify him?
            As I said: hopefully I'm wrong. Seems that maybe I was.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment

            • #186
              Since the inspired NT does not record it used in any other way then there is zero justification for OBP saying that I misused Mounce.

              Comment

              • #187
                Yes he does (maybe). The New Testament does not define the word to have a meaning or application in the Bible that is in any way different to its common meaning. The Septuagint explicitly uses the word with reference to worship of other gods.

                According to Mounce, "praying is a uniquely Christian activity." - The Septuagint shows that to be false. The Jews were proseuchomai-ing long before Christianity was thought of, and they were still doing it after Christianity was established. And not only the Jews, but Pagans as well. That's in the Septuagint.
                According to Mounce, "praying is a uniquely Christian activity." - The writings of the Early Church Fathers show that to be false.
                According to Mounce, "praying is a uniquely Christian activity." in the same sentence that he says "Only once in the NT does this verb seem to suggest praying took place to pagan deities". It doesn't take any knowledge of Koine Greek whatever to realise that Mounce has contradicted himself in the same sentence. THAT sentence is written in English.

                This time, you seem to have understood Mounce correctly - and the evidence is there - in his own writing - in one English sentence - that he got it wrong.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment

                • #188
                  THIS is a definition:
                  Original Word: προσεύχομαι
                  Part of Speech: Verb
                  Transliteration: proseuchomai
                  Phonetic Spelling: (pros-yoo'-khom-ahee)
                  Short Definition: I pray, pray for
                  Definition: I pray, pray for, offer prayer.

                  THIS is a definition
                  properly, to exchange wishes; pray

                  THIS is commentary:
                  – literally, to interact with the Lord by switching human wishes (ideas) for His wishes as He imparts faith ("divine persuasion"). Accordingly, praying (4336/proseuxomai) is closely inter-connected with 4102 /pístis ("faith") in the NT. See: Ac 6:5,6,14:22,23; Eph 6:16-18; Col 1:3,4; 2 Thes 3:1,2; Js 5:13-15; Jude 20.

                  and not only commentary, but 75% denominationally tainted claptrap. It is written there - not to assist with understanding the nuances of the word, but to make a point. Even if it was accurate, it still would not belong in a dictionary.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 07-29-2014, 01:33 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment

                  • #189
                    Mounce didn't get it wrong. You did.
                    When he wrote "praying is a uniquely Christian activity" it refers to the Greek word proseuchomai in relation to how it is used in the New Testament.

                    Once again the INSPIRED text.

                    Comment

                    • #190
                      Ya ya - Mounce's is an inspired text that just happens to contradict itself in the same sentence.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment

                      • #191
                        Try figuring out what a possible exception means.

                        Oh while you're at it clue up and check these out:

                        W.E. Vine: "to pray," is always used of "prayer" to God (proseuchomai)
                        http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...iew.cgi?n=2181

                        Louw/Nida: Citing proseuchomai:
                        to speak to or to make requests of God - 'to pray, to speak to God, to ask God for, prayer' (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, 33.178, page 409).

                        Robert F. O'Toole: All but one example of prayer, proseuchomai and its cognates, are predicated of God; however, if our interpretation of "Lord" as the risen Jesus in Acts 1:24 be correct, the apostles would be praying to him as normally was done only to God. Prayer belongs to the area of worship. Jesus' reply to the devil defines who should be worshipped. "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord, your God, and him alone shall you serve'" (Luke 4:8) establishes a clear principle (Luke's Presentation of Jesus: A Christology, page 220).

                        Kim Se-Yoon: Concerning the Lord Jesus: He is addressed in prayer, a clear indication of His deity (Acts 1:24-25) (Origin of Paul's Gospel, page 105).

                        The case still continues to mount against those that deny the obvious.
                        Last edited by foudroyant; 07-29-2014, 02:04 AM.

                        Comment

                        • #192
                          Mounce didn't say "possible" he said "only once in the New Testament does this verb seem to suggest" - The verse doesn't "seem to suggest" anything, it says quite plainly, "don't pray the same way that the pagans do."
                          But that is only a quibble:

                          "Praying is a uniquely Christian activity" is outright false. There isn't even a mention of "In the New Testament it is uniquely Christian" that would lend even the slightest hint that it has other uses elsewhere.

                          Repeating:

                          According to Mounce, "praying is a uniquely Christian activity." - The Septuagint shows that to be false. The Jews were proseuchomai-ing long before Christianity was thought of, and they were still doing it after Christianity was established. And not only the Jews, but Pagans as well. That's in the Septuagint.
                          According to Mounce, "praying is a uniquely Christian activity." - The writings of the Early Church Fathers show that to be false.

                          Pagans are explicitly said to προσευχομαι their gods in both the LXX and in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. "Praying is a uniquely Christian activity" is false.

                          The gospels according to Mounce, Vine, TDNT et al aren't in any copy of the Bible that I know of. So - if you want to cite word chapter and verse of where the "infallible scripture" declares that προσευχομαι is reserved strictly for use regarding prayer to God, be kind enough to do so.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 07-29-2014, 02:24 AM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment

                          • #193
                            Give it up man.

                            You're correct and all of them are in error.

                            Grand prize for you for your pride and arrogance.

                            Comment

                            • #194
                              Yup - every time you can't refute something, you trot out the old "pride and arrogance" line.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

                              • #195
                                For people who act stupid by insisting that somehow all the authors of the lexicons got it wrong but rest assured people like you are there to come in and set them straight.


                                Bunch of bumbling idiots.



                                You used the word "trot".

                                Define it.

                                Comment

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