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Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

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  • The paragraph in full
    The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus’ deity. Stephen does pray to Jesus (Acts 7:60), but the norm is to pray to God the Father (Mt 6:9). Only once in the NT does this verb seem to suggest praying took place to pagan deities (Mt. 6:7); that is, praying is a uniquely Christian activity.
    The clauses of the final sentence, marked in grey and pink, contradict each other.
    That however is a minor difficulty -

    The whole section concerned with proseuchomai is focussed on the use of the word in the Bible - its use in other contexts is not addressed. Mounce has stated that only one occurrence of proseuchomai with regard to pagan deities is recorded - in the Bible that is. That one occurrence shows that proseuchomai does have uses other than in the context of prayer to God.

    The use of proseuchomai does not show that prayer, even in the Bible, is the sole preserve of Christians. That being the case, context - not the use of the word itself - shows that Jesus is addressed in prayer by people faithful to God. It is evidence that Jesus is God, but by no means proof.

    The Biblical record shows that proseuchomai is used almost exclusively (in the Bible) to show that prayer is addressed to God.
    No more than that can be said.
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-28-2014, 07:40 PM.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • Thanks Tab,

      OK OBP, how did I misuse Mounce?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
        Thanks Tab,

        OK OBP, how did I misuse Mounce?
        By asserting that those who pray to Mary therefore believe that she is omniscient and God. To do that, you would need to show that proseuchomai is used only in prayer to God/gods, that proseuchomai is used to describe prayer to Mary in Greek, and explain why that, nonetheless, those who pray to Mary and the saints hold dogmatically to God being solely a trinity comprised of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You are familiar with the Nicene Creed, yes?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Praying to the Lord Jesus is proof of His Deity.
          The people who pray to Mary, whether they realize it or not, are ascribing to her what is meant for God alone.

          NIDNTT: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty One with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (2:857, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).

          Those who pray to Mary:
          In prayer we are never to forget THOSE we are addressing: the living GODS, the almighty ONES with THEM nothing is impossible, and from THEM therefore all things may be expected.
          Last edited by foudroyant; 07-28-2014, 08:27 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Justin Martyr
            The tribes of the barbarians, he says, are wiser than these; I know thy teachers, even if thou wouldst conceal them. You have learned geometry from the Egyptians, astronomy from the Babylonians; the charms of healing you have got from the Thracians; the Assyrians also have taught you many things; but for the laws that are consistent with truth, and your sentiments respecting God, you are indebted to the Hebrews,(1)

            Who do not worship through vain deceits
            The works of men, of gold, and brass, and silver, and ivory,
            And images of dead men, of wood and stone,
            Which other men, led by their foolish inclinations, worship;
            But raise to heaven pure arms:
            When they rise from bed, purifying themselves with water,
            And worship alone the Eternal, who reigns for evermore.
            Most interesting.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • Worship God alone.
              Agree.

              And yes, prayer in the sense we are discussing here, is worship.

              Those who pray to Mary try in vain to make a dichotomy between praying to her and worshiping her.

              The lengths they will go...........

              Comment


              • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                Praying to the Lord Jesus is proof of His Deity.
                The people who pray to Mary, whether they realize it or not, are ascribing to her what is meant for God alone.
                You are ascribing to Mounce a certainty which he does not affirm.
                NIDNTT: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty One with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (2:857, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).
                Assumes your narrow definition of prayer.
                Those who pray to Mary:
                In prayer we are never to forget THOSE we are addressing: the living GODS, the almighty ONES with THEM nothing is impossible, and from THEM therefore all things may be expected.
                Appears to be something you made up. Forgive me for not accepting your word as gospel.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                  Worship God alone.
                  Agree.

                  And yes, prayer in the sense we are discussing here, is worship.

                  Those who pray to Mary try in vain to make a dichotomy between praying to her and worshiping her.

                  The lengths they will go...........
                  It would help if you didn't project so much.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079).

                    The evidence just keeps mounting against your blasphemous position.

                    Comment


                    • 44:17 τὸ δὲ λοιπὸν ἐποίησεν εἰς θεὸν γλυπτὸν καὶ προσκυνεῖ αὐτῷ καὶ προσεύχεται λέγων ἐξελοῦ με ὅτι θεός μου εἶ σύ
                      OK - προσεύχεται definitely is used in the Bible to address idols.
                      So - is it possible to προσευχομαι a person. Logically, it should be possible.

                      Search continues.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • Proseuchomai is just like latreuo in that it can be rendered unto others besides God but it ought not to be done.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Samuel E. Balentine, Prayer, page 1079).

                          The evidence just keeps mounting against your blasphemous position.
                          For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                          Imagine that, Protestant sources that ignore prayer to the saints.

                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • It is possible for an employee to λατρευω an employer without any violation of Christian service to God. It is also possible for a volunteer to λατρευω in a number of areas without any violation of Christian precepts.

                            Again, the only time that the word is used for properly rendering λατρευω in the Bible is when service is rendered to God.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 07-28-2014, 09:49 PM.
                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • And One Bad Pig is correct.

                              If it cannot be shown that prayers, as offered in the Roman and Orthodox traditions, to saints are prayers offered as to gods - it also cannot be shown that such prayers are idolatrous.
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                              Comment


                              • It has been shown that prayer is due unto God alone.
                                Greek dictionaries and lexicons have been repeatedly cited.



                                And the list goes on....

                                Robert Reymond: Jesus declared that he will answer the prayers of his disciples (John 14:13), but equally significant for our purpose, he represents himself as One to whom prayers may properly be addressed. In verse 14, Jesus stated again that he himself will answer his disciples' prayers - surely an implicit claim to deity since one would have to be divine to hear, in all the languages of the world, the myriads of prayers being offered up to him at any one moment and then wisely to answer each prayer. While many other examples might be cited, the instances of prayer addressed to Jesus in Acts 1:24, 7:59, 9:10-17, 2 Corinthians 12:8, 1 Thessalonians 3:11, and 2 Thessalonians 2:16 bear out the literalness with which the disciples understood Jesus' promise, and reflect the immediacy on their part of the recognition of his divinity. (A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, pages 232-233).
                                Last edited by foudroyant; 07-28-2014, 10:36 PM.

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