Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[foudroyant]

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27, NASB)

James Denney: This intercession, with which our heart goes, though it is deeper than words, the Heart Searcher understands. (The Expositor's Greek Testament)
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

Beet: That these groanings are unspeakable, does not lessen their efficacy. For they appeal to one who searches the hearts (Revelation 2:23; Jeremiah 17:10; 1 Samuel 16:7) and thus hears this silent intercession.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

Kretzmann: All such inarticulate sighs in the hearts of the Christians, although they are not and cannot be clothed in the words of human speech, are nevertheless fully intelligible to God. He that searches, investigates, the hearts is fully conscious of, perfectly acquainted with, the mind of the Spirit. The omniscient God knows what the Spirit has in mind in those groanings whose content cannot be expressed in the words of human language.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

Mahan: ‘He that searcheth the heart’ is God. No man knows the heart of another, nor does any man fully know his own heart (Luke 16:15). The Lord knows our motives, our thoughts, and our intentions (John 21:17). He knows the mind or the purpose and providence of the Spirit of God, and he makes intercession for the believers according to and in perfect harmony with the will of God for them.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

Pett: The reference to ‘He Who searches the hearts’ confirms that the Spirit is praying as we pray. Whatever our outward words our Father knows all that is in our hearts (and all our needs, as Jesus made clear in Matthew 6), searching our hearts as we pray. And as the Spirit prays through us the Father ‘knows His mind’, that is knows precisely what He is requesting, because He makes his intercession ‘according to God’ (‘the will of’ is not in the Greek, but put in by translators in order to make the sense clear). We need therefore never be afraid that any failure of ours in understanding will hinder our prayers to God at times of need.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8

More can be provided but the point is clear. It takes the Heart-Knower (The Omniscient God) to fully know the prayers of all people whom the Holy Spirit is interceding for. Mary can't do it - nor can anyone else.

[foudroyant]

If it disagrees with the Bible then to the flames they go.

[robrecht]

No, Psalm 139 has plenty of doctrinal points.
Maccabees isn't Scripture.

You are, once again, missing or avoiding the point. Have you nothing to say about the Masoretic vocalization of this psalm, nothing to say about the the development of Jewish and Christian belief and doctrine, nothing to say about the earliest forms of Christian worship, other than to say that it was composed by 'moronic idiots'?

[foudroyant]

Alternatively, we can pray (worship) in Spirit and in Truth (to the Father) as Jesus advised the Samaritan woman....

Is prayer worship?

[apostoli]

We do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us (Romans 8:26, NASB)


If you are not praying "in the Spirit" then it is not acceptable to God (cf. Jude 1:20). We are to pray at all times in the Spirit (Ephesians 6:18).

Alternatively, we can pray (worship) in Spirit and in Truth (to the Father) as Jesus advised the Samaritan woman...

Of interest, if you are attentive to scripture, you would note that in the Gospels, not once did Jesus declare himself, directly or explicitly, as the Messiah, to any Jew (including his disciples). However, he did declare himself explicitly to the Samaritan woman....

In my RCC education, from infancy, I was taught that prayer is not a jumble of words but a way of life. At times of grievious desperation I have used words to appeal to God (the Father) to inspire me (receive the Holy Spirit) through the example of his Son to give me strength. i've in many ways have lived through the ordeals of Job. Despite, a lot of suffering, anguish and tears, so far so good...my prayers have been answered...

[foudroyant]

We do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us (Romans 8:26, NASB)


If you are not praying "in the Spirit" then it is not acceptable to God (cf. Jude 1:20). We are to pray at all times in the Spirit (Ephesians 6:18).

[tabibito]

None of us know how to properly prayer except through the intercession of the Holy Spirit.

"we do not know what we should pray for"

suddenly becomes

"we do not know how to pray"

Believers Bible Commentary
8:26 Just as we are sustained by this glorious hope, so the Spirit sustains us in our weaknesses. We are often perplexed in our prayer life. We do not know how to pray as we should. We pray selfishly, ignorantly, narrowly. But once again the Spirit comes alongside to assist us in our weakness, interceding for us with groanings which cannot find expression. In this verse it is the Spirit who groans and not we who groan, though that is also true.
There is mystery here. We are peering into the unseen, spiritual realm where a great Person and great forces are at work on our behalf. And although we cannot understand it all, we can take infinite encouragement from the fact that a groan may sometimes be the most spiritual prayer.

[foudroyant]

I am satisfied that Paul knew how to pray for as he ought on many occasions, and he admits in this piece that there were occasions when he didn't. There is no claim in this passage that Paul never knew how to pray.

None of us know how to properly prayer except through the intercession of the Holy Spirit.

[foudroyant]

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...rd-Jesus/page5
Post #49

I believe in the Trinity. I reject Modalism and Oneness Pentecostalism (David K. Bernard).

A book I would recommend that I read years ago is "A Definitive Look at Oneness Theology: Defending the Tri-Unity of God" by Edward L. Dalcour

http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Loo.../dp/0761829938

[tabibito]

Interesting to see that you are better at prayer than Paul.
"For WE (Paul includes himself) do not know how to pray as we should" (Romans 8:26, NASB, emphasis mine)

First the denial of how words are defined and now the claim to be better at prayer than Paul.

Your arrogance stubbornly marches on.

I am satisfied that Paul knew how to pray for as he ought on many occasions, and he admits in this piece that there were occasions when he didn't. There is no claim in this passage that Paul never knew how to pray.

I haven't denied how words are properly defined at any point - just denied that you are qualified to re-define them as you see fit to bolster your allegations of impropriety against others.

And your ad hom attacks are useless - all they prove is that you don't have what it takes to respond to the issues at hand.

[apostoli]

Have him start another thread about Modalism. This topic is unrelated here and in the JW section. I already wrote in the JW section that I believe in the Trinity and yet he hasn't answered my question.

My apologies. I must have missed that post. Point me to it.

Sabellianists (Oneness believers) believe in a form of trinity, three modes of appearance of a single person/entity that is God (this is what JWs regularly write about and reject)). Trinitarians believe in three distinct persons/entities (hypostases) wherein only the Father is authotheos (God of himself), the Son was begooten by the Father before the ages, God from God (homoousious) and the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone and is sent to us by the Son...

My understanding of your perspective (based on your posts) is you reject the Nicean witness that has guided the Christian church since 325CE...

Obviously, the two disparate perspectives will influence the direction of our supplications and prayers. So as you should realise, your oneness perspective needs to be examined (especially as it is, in the opinion of the ancient and modern theologians unsupportable from scripture).

[foudroyant]

I asked Dee Dee quite some time ago (or was it Mossrose?) about starting a Oneness thread and I was told there wasn't a need for it (yet?).

[apostoli]

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

Foudroyant and Apostoli, we are discussing among staff right now where the appropriate area for this particular discussion should be, but it needs to be addressed, Foudroyant. Your answers will determine which areas you are allowed to post in and which you aren't.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

In humility I bow to the moderators...

As a suggestion, possibly two more sections might be added to the Forum list. One for Oneness believers and another for Christadelphians. Both are growth denominations in my area...

[foudroyant]

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

Foudroyant and Apostoli, we are discussing among staff right now where the appropriate area for this particular discussion should be, but it needs to be addressed, Foudroyant. Your answers will determine which areas you are allowed to post in and which you aren't.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

Have him start another thread about Modalism. This topic is unrelated here and in the JW section. I already wrote in the JW section that I believe in the Trinity and yet he hasn't answered my question.

[apostoli]

First, because before this time I asked you a question and you wouldn't answer it. Second, I already told you to start a thread elsewhere concerning Modalism because the topic under discussion is whether the Lord Jesus is the recipient of prayer in the writings of Paul.

Firstly, demonstrate to me once where I did not directly answer your questions!!!!

Secondly, your view of prayer involves what I interpret as your "oneness belief". So, it is directly on topic!!!

Sometime ago, in another thread, I directly quoted Jesus, wherein he said "This is how you are to pray..." Apparently you reject Jesus' instruction/s...,

__________________________

Here is what I originally asked foudroyant, numerous times. Not once has foudroyant had the confidence of conviction to directly answer me at least once (though as he has done here, he did attempt to provide a diversion to avoid answering the direct question/s).

Questions arise regarding your opinion: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

So far, foudroyant, in his general cowardice, has not affirmed or denied any of the above propositions. Even though they are all Biblically substantiated!!!

I've simply concluded he has had a puff too much on the weed...and has attached himself to what I call the "christian taliban in the USA" (those, who for no rational reason, hate Jews, Catholics & Blacks and reject most Christian belief).

__________________________

On another thread, it came plainly obvious to me that foudroyant does not subscribe to any form of Orthodox or Protestant mainstream Christianity (I assume he is a Sabellian (oneness pentecostal)...

Elsewhere, I presented him with a few standard Christian propositions. He, over a lengthy period of time, and multiple repetitions on my part, resorted to a range of diversions and never responded to my direct queries. I'll summarise what I have had to conclude are his denials of standard/orthodox/mainstream Christian faith:

1. foudroyant apparently rejects the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

2. foudroyant apparently rejects that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

3. foudroyant apparently rejects that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. ( foudroyant apparently assumes, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

4. foudroyant apparently believes the Son was incarnated as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

5. foudroyant apparently believes the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person. If so, then, obviously, foudroyant rejects the witness of the NT, and most particularly rejects A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

6. foudroyant apparently rejects A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

7. foudroyant apparently rejects A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

__________________________

foudroyant, you can run but you cannot hide. There are many people here that have known me for years, and though some may not agree with my every premise I am confident I would garner more support than what I assume is your oneness pentecostal (or personal) trash...