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How do we determine whether the Bible is the Word of God?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    There are many other kinds of contradictions as well in the Bible. For example, while 1 Timothy 6:16 says "no one has seen God nor can anyone see him", Job said to God in Job 42:5 "my eyes have seen you" and "those that are pure in heart will see God".
    Same (or perhaps you prefer Hakeem?), do you have any idea what an idiom is, or how sometimes words are used figuratively instead of literally? Because that is how the word "see" is used in Job 42:5. Job is not claiming to have literally seen God. Here's the entire poem from which the verse is taken:

    Scripture Verse: Job 42:1-6 ESV


    Then Job answered the Lord and said:

    2 “I know that you can do all things,
    and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
    Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
    4 ‘Hear, and I will speak;
    I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
    5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
    but now my eye sees you;
    6 therefore I despise myself,
    and repent in dust and ashes.”

    © Copyright Original Source



    "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;" or, in other words "Previously my knowledge of you came through rumors and hearsay, but now my knowledge of you comes from personal and intimate experience".
    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      Same (or perhaps you prefer Hakeem?), do you have any idea what an idiom is, or how sometimes words are used figuratively instead of literally? Because that is how the word "see" is used in Job 42:5. Job is not claiming to have literally seen God. Here's the entire poem from which the verse is taken:

      Scripture Verse: Job 42:1-6 ESV


      Then Job answered the Lord and said:

      2 “I know that you can do all things,
      and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
      3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
      Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
      things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
      4 ‘Hear, and I will speak;
      I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
      5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
      but now my eye sees you;
      6 therefore I despise myself,
      and repent in dust and ashes.”

      © Copyright Original Source



      "I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you;" or, in other words "Previously my knowledge of you came through rumors and hearsay, but now my knowledge of you comes from personal and intimate experience".
      My impression is, that the OP expects the Bible to be a Jewish Koran. The Koran is almost a Divine monologue, with a single character onstage almost all the time. The human element is cut to the absolute minimum. The idea seems to be, that a Scripture with any real human involvement is less really Divine and pure than one in which the only character is God. The full-blooded humanity of the Bible seems to be a real stumbling-block for Muslims.

      And the Bible is not like the Koran, for God is made known through being involved with creatures - His very first action in the Bible, is to create something that is not Himself - whereas the god of Islam is remote from human history, far too exalted to do anything so yucky as to become a man.

      It doesn’t help that the Bible has at times been spoken of as though it consisted of nothing but universally & eternally valid moral principles devoid of cultural context or conditioning. That it is rooted in a very specific set of cultures, over a long period of time, probably does not help either.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        Same (or perhaps you prefer Hakeem?),
        He signed up initially as Hakeem, and apparently lost his password or something during a hiatus and reregistered. We offered to link the two and reset the password under his old account, but he didn't care enough to respond.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #49
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          He signed up initially as Hakeem, and apparently lost his password or something during a hiatus and reregistered. We offered to link the two and reset the password under his old account, but he didn't care enough to respond.
          I'm guessing there is a significant language barrier here (and that's the most generous conclusion I can draw).
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #50
            Well, it is written that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Is the bible God? ...or a testimony of One who says that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him? And is this reward a bible and instructions to figure it out for yourself? Hmmm...
            Last edited by Jeff; 11-22-2018, 11:19 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Jeff View Post
              Well, it is written that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Is the bible God? ...or a testimony of One who says that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him? And is this reward a bible and instructions to figure it out for yourself? Hmmm...
              The Word is not the bible.
              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

              Comment


              • #52
                ...nor is the bible the Word. Tis a God breathed testimony of the true Word made flesh in "whom" is revealed the one true "Speaker". Point... without a true knowledge of these one cannot rightly comprehend what is written... which explains the division among the sects. The Spirit makes the many One, not the One many.

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                • #53
                  Jeff, first of all, welcome to Tweb.

                  Secondly, please take note that each forum has its own rules for who can post in that forum. Some forums are only open to orthodox Christians, some are open to everybody, and some "Christian" threads restrict unorthodox Christians from posting.

                  Since your faith designation is "Unorthodox Christian", as defined by Tweb, it would be good for you to check the rules for each forum BEFORE posting or starting a thread.

                  If you need help with that, or have questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

                  CP
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                  • #54
                    Thx Cow Poke. I keep forgetting that though I know my Lord and am a coworker in Him for His glory alone, many think otherwise. I will pay closer attention to the rules. Please accept my apology.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                      Thx Cow Poke. I keep forgetting that though I know my Lord and am a coworker in Him for His glory alone, many think otherwise. I will pay closer attention to the rules. Please accept my apology.
                      Not a prob, Jeff - you don't seem like you're here to cause chaos and mayhem.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                      • #56
                        Edited by a Moderator

                        Moderated By: sparko

                        Hakeem, you are not allowed to post in Ecclesiology. It is for Christians only - This is your official warning. Please watch where you post

                        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                        Last edited by Sparko; 05-03-2019, 10:51 AM.

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                        • #57
                          The Scriptures are both the written and revealed. Jesus himself was the Word John 1:1 but he also believed in the authority of Scripture as well (Matthew 4:4; Luke 24:44). One does not go against the other.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by ReformedApologist View Post
                            The Scriptures are both the written and revealed. Jesus himself was the Word John 1:1 but he also believed in the authority of Scripture as well (Matthew 4:4; Luke 24:44). One does not go against the other.
                            Yep. And just to piggy-back, when Adam heard God say " you shall not " it was the Word of God. When that history was written down, it was the written Word of God. All scripture is breathed out by the Holy Spirit whether regardless of how you become aware of it.
                            “Every promise of Scripture is a writing of God, which may be pleaded before Him with this reasonable request, ‘Do as Thou hast said.’ The Heavenly Father will not break His Word to His own child.”― Charles H. Spurgeon

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Physiocrat View Post
                              Not sure if this is the best sub-forum but hey ho.

                              I'm from a Protestant background and recently came across a Roman Catholic argument that we could determine that the scriptures were highly reliable using the standard tools of history and logic but it couldn't tell us that they were the inspired Word of God. The article claimed that they only way we can be sure that it is the Word of God because the Church (capital C for a reason) was founded by Christ so has the authority to declare it to be so. However this still doesn't answer the fundamental epistemological question of how does one move from solid truthful documents to the inspired Word of God.

                              My tentative suggestion is that prophets of God are accompanied with signs and wonders to declare they're God's agent however we would likley only have the testimony of the prophet to distinguish between what were his words alone and those inspired by God.

                              Any thoughts on the matter would be much appreciated.
                              I would add, as a step in the process of the Church’s authentication of Scripture, this: that the Spirit through (Whom all Scripture was inspired) made known to the local churches, and to the Church Universal, from the beginning onwards, that all the Scriptures, whensoever composed and acknowledged as His, were God-breathed; so that the incomplete, uncanonised, but always God-breathed writings were in due course all canonised as a group.

                              I believe the Holy Spirit is continually at work in the hearts of Christians individually, and in the churches and the Church, witnessing to them that the Scriptures breathed and opened up by His Agency are His Words, having His authority and grace and power, and are to bear His fruits.

                              I think that the “God-breathing” of all Scripture, and the discerning of them in the churches, is, like sanctification, both a completed work, and a continuing process.

                              So IMHO the Catholic and Protestant accounts of the bestowing of the Bible on the Church need to be put together, to fill one another out; and I think the resulting account needs development too. The part played by the Church is in its entirety wholly dependent on the action of God’s grace. It has no being or authority, except in Christ.
                              Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 01-20-2021, 12:35 AM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                                cereburm123 writing " It's a copyist error" proves there is a contradiction between 2 Chronicles 22:2 and 2 Kings 8:26.

                                There are many other kinds of contradictions as well in the Bible. For example, while 1 Timothy 6:16 says "no one has seen God nor can anyone see him", Job said to God in Job 42:5 "my eyes have seen you" and "those that are pure in heart will see God".
                                There need be no contradiction.

                                1. First, on the subject of contradiction in general. As a matter of logic it is important to distinguish between contradiction in words, &, contradiction in things.

                                If I say, “Julius Caesar was murdered on the 15th of March“„ and also say “Julius Caesar was murdered on the Ides of March“, I am using two different sets of words to state the date of the murder of Julius Caesar. Am I contradicting myself ? No; because I am using two different ways to refer to one and the same day for one and the same event befalling one and the same person. The contradiction is not in reality, but is purely verbal. Many contradictions said to occur within the Bible are of that purely verbal kind; they are not, in reality, contradictions, but are simply different ways of stating the same thing.
                                A different kind of contradiction occurs as follows. When did World War II begin ? For Poland, it began with the invasion of Poland on September 1, 1939. For Great Britain it began on September 3, 1939. The United States, by contrast, was not a combatant until after December 7, 1941. Yet all three countries participated in the same war. So historians of those countries who write from the point of view of each of those countries will be perfectly correct in giving those differing dates. This is an instance of a real as well as verbal contradiction which is truthful in all three cases. The three dates do not need to be harmonised with one another and it would be a serious perversion of the facts to harmonise them.

                                2. In English, we say “I don’t see how quantum mechanics works” - meaning “I do not perceive with my intellect how quantum mechanics works”.

                                We also say “I cannot see put the keys” - meaning, “I do not perceive with my eyes…” etc.

                                The word used is the same, because the action, that of perception, is the same. What differs, is the mode of perception, and the thing perceived: one does not see an idea in the same manner as one perceives material objects such as keys. English-speakers are used to this way of speaking; it is customary, & taken for granted, so in practice, it causes very little confusion, even if, in principle, to someone not used to how English is spoken, it might look very confusing.

                                In the Biblical texts, there is the same way of speaking, by using the same word for two actions of perception which are alike even though they differ in important respects. The verb “to see“ Is often used where we would say something like “to experience”.


                                The experience of God is the experience by the creature of something radically unlike the creature. For human beings to say that they see God, is not meaningless, but it stretches the normal customary use of language. It is a paradox to say that man can be capable of seeing the God who cannot be seen.
                                Logically that is a manifest contradiction. That is because we are accustomed to thinking in a Greek manner, one for which logical coherence and freedom from internal contradiction was very important. The Biblical mind is on the whole not Greek. It is Hebraic. It lays ideas side-by-side and refuses to dismiss any of them in order to gain logical coherence and consistency at the price of sacrificing truth and reality. So while it may in one sense be impossible to see God, it can also in a somewhat different sense be entirely right and proper to speak of seeing God. Neither way of speaking is wrong; each way of speaking has its proper place.


















                                Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 09-20-2021, 06:42 PM.

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