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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.

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Lord of Spirits - Atonement

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  • Lord of Spirits - Atonement

    So, I've started listening to a podcast called "Lord of Spirits" - and learning all sorts of fascinating stuff.

    The episode I've just finished is The Priest Shall Make Atonement.

    It turns out that "atonement" is a made-up word for purposes of translation of a Greek word which itself was made-up for purposes of translation from the Hebrew - so it's a concept which is easy to misunderstand. It also turns out that, upon examination of Leviticus, that the goat killed on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is NOT a sin offering - indeed, it's not even a sacrifice; only its blood is needed.

    Jesus is presented as a type of BOTH goats involved in the Day of Atonement ritual; both goats had to be perfect because the one chosen for its blood had to be perfect, and it was chosen by lot.

    It turns out that Matthew, the most 'Jewish' of the gospels, deliberately portrays Jesus as the goat which is driven out into the wilderness; by the time of the first century, the goat had a scarlet rope wrapped around its neck, was struck by reeds, vilified and spat upon as it was driven out of the city - all of which imagery Matthew deliberately evokes. The line in Matthew where the Jews utter the words "His blood be upon us and our children" is actually the opposite of anti-Semitic - it's a GOOD thing to be covered in Jesus' blood!

    In Luke, Jesus' walk to Emmaus is also symbolically significant; a famous battle occurred there, where the Maccabees defeated the Seleucids - enabling then to reconsecrate the Temple after Antiochus Epiphanes had defiled the altar by sacrificing pigs to Zeus on it. Jesus' walk occurred just after His blood had sanctified the world. Jesus's ascension into heaven after 40 days is a final parallel to the Day of Atonement; having taken on the sins of the world as the goat driven into the wilderness, Jesus left the world which He had just sanctified, taking our sins with Him.

    It's the multitude of little details like this, by the way, which makes it rather far-fetched to imagine that the gospels were freely altered wholesale in the early centuries after they were composed; much of this would not have been understood by the (largely) Gentiles who would have done the altering, and would have unwittingly been lost.

    I'm not typically very interested in podcasts, but this one blows my mind on a regular basis (and transcripts are generally available).
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  • #2
    I tend to think of Barabbas as the scapegoat that was released into the wilderness.

    I'm not familiar with the concept that the scapegoat was struck by reeds, spat upon and vilified. I know that the Talmud, Tractate Yoma, mentions tying a scarlet thread or cloth on the goat's head before releasing it. Another chapter in Yoma mentions attaching a scarlet thread to its head before throwing it over a cliff (so that it doesn't return), but neither of those appear in Scripture as part of the Day of Atonement ritual.

    I will admit, I didn't listen to the entire audio. Only the first part.
    When I Survey....

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Faber View Post
      I tend to think of Barabbas as the scapegoat that was released into the wilderness.

      I'm not familiar with the concept that the scapegoat was struck by reeds, spat upon and vilified. I know that the Talmud, Tractate Yoma, mentions tying a scarlet thread or cloth on the goat's head before releasing it. Another chapter in Yoma mentions attaching a scarlet thread to its head before throwing it over a cliff (so that it doesn't return), but neither of those appear in Scripture as part of the Day of Atonement ritual.

      I will admit, I didn't listen to the entire audio. Only the first part.
      No, they don't appear in scripture. The podcast cites the Epistle of Barnabas.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        So, I've started listening to a podcast called "Lord of Spirits" - and learning all sorts of fascinating stuff.

        The episode I've just finished is The Priest Shall Make Atonement.
        One of my favorite podcasts. Are you listening to all the past episodes?
        Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post

          One of my favorite podcasts. Are you listening to all the past episodes?
          I will be, yes.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment

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