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Discussion on matters of general mainstream Christian churches. What are the differences between Catholics and protestants? How has the charismatic movement affected the church? Are Southern baptists different from fundamentalist baptists? It is also for discussions about the nature of the church.

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Church Leadership

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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    IMO it would be rather more profitable to reconsider whether the church has indeed failed for 2,000 years.
    The problem is the answer is yes and no. Yes, there have been failures and some pretty spectacular. Yet there have also been successes. Not sure how a look at over 2,000 years of failure will make things better now.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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    • #17
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      I have a lot of thoughts on the topic of "what church should look like," but I'm having a lot of trouble concentrating.

      Marg Mowczko posted this article by a young-looking pastor to her Facebook page. It at least touches on a lot of things on my mind.

      Gordon Fee has a couple of good essays from a while back -- "Laos and Leadership Under the New Covenant" and "Reflections on Church Order in the Pastoral Epistles." I think they're only available in his books.
      Fee covered some related material in one of his chapters that appear in all editions of Discovering Biblical Equality, "The Priority of Spirit-Gifting for Church Ministry."

      Here is a summary of the chapter with several quotes from the chapter, and a few opinions by the "summarizer."

      Here appears to be a summary of a lecture or seminar by the same title.

      Two big takeaways for me:

      -- It is striking how little we actually know about "how they did church" in the Early Church, or about how much uniformity vs. diversity there was.

      -- It was much less about "Who's in charge here," and much more about "How can we all best serve each other?"
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

        Fee covered some related material in one of his chapters that appear in all editions of Discovering Biblical Equality, "The Priority of Spirit-Gifting for Church Ministry."

        Here is a summary of the chapter with several quotes from the chapter, and a few opinions by the "summarizer."

        Here appears to be a summary of a lecture or seminar by the same title.

        Two big takeaways for me:

        -- It is striking how little we actually know about "how they did church" in the Early Church, or about how much uniformity vs. diversity there was.

        -- It was much less about "Who's in charge here," and much more about "How can we all best serve each other?"
        I'm fine with the first link. Since I've seen arguments from the Bible justifying the structure of the Roman Catholic church and denominations to others that say only an independent church is Biblical, I have to agree that the Bible is ambiguous about how a church should be organized. It probably was very diverse back in Biblical times. It does also seem to indicate there are leaders in the church.

        My take is the articles are more advocating that qualified people be put into leadership. I've seen too many people in leadership because they helped found the church or are a big donor rather than being actually qualified to do anything. I agree with an article I read recently that the person who wants a leadership position isn't qualified to have it.

        Personally, I think John 13:1-17 has been pushed out of proportion. It's not about the leader being the servant of the community. Jesus affirms He is still Load and Teacher. I think the more correct message in the passage is no task is below the dignity of the leader to perform.
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

          I'm fine with the first link. Since I've seen arguments from the Bible justifying the structure of the Roman Catholic church and denominations to others that say only an independent church is Biblical, I have to agree that the Bible is ambiguous about how a church should be organized. It probably was very diverse back in Biblical times. It does also seem to indicate there are leaders in the church.

          My take is the articles are more advocating that qualified people be put into leadership. I've seen too many people in leadership because they helped found the church or are a big donor rather than being actually qualified to do anything. I agree with an article I read recently that the person who wants a leadership position isn't qualified to have it.

          Personally, I think John 13:1-17 has been pushed out of proportion. It's not about the leader being the servant of the community. Jesus affirms He is still Load and Teacher. I think the more correct message in the passage is no task is below the dignity of the leader to perform.
          One of the points Fee makes in at least one of those articles of his that I cited is that the whole notion of a separate "class" of leaders/ministers is an Old Covenant "priests and Levites" concept that is not properly part of the New Covenant, but that "the Church" has drifted back into.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

            I'm fine with the first link. Since I've seen arguments from the Bible justifying the structure of the Roman Catholic church and denominations to others that say only an independent church is Biblical, I have to agree that the Bible is ambiguous about how a church should be organized. It probably was very diverse back in Biblical times. It does also seem to indicate there are leaders in the church.

            My take is the articles are more advocating that qualified people be put into leadership. I've seen too many people in leadership because they helped found the church or are a big donor rather than being actually qualified to do anything. I agree with an article I read recently that the person who wants a leadership position isn't qualified to have it.

            Personally, I think John 13:1-17 has been pushed out of proportion. It's not about the leader being the servant of the community. Jesus affirms He is still Load and Teacher. I think the more correct message in the passage is no task is below the dignity of the leader to perform.
            Part of the issue is that the New Testament is not a manual on how to to church; the letters are generally occasional pieces written to deal with a particular situation, and the gospels/Acts are historical/biographical. What we see in the NT is the apostles appointing leaders to various churches, and those leaders appointing others (see, e.g., the pastoral epistles). What we don't see is local churches independently appointing their own leaders.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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            • #21
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

              One of the points Fee makes in at least one of those articles of his that I cited is that the whole notion of a separate "class" of leaders/ministers is an Old Covenant "priests and Levites" concept that is not properly part of the New Covenant, but that "the Church" has drifted back into.
              I think we're actually talking about the same issue from different perspectives. I think we're both concerned with the rise of "elite" leadership and putting the organization ahead of the people. While these are probably not necessarily bad, we have too many examples of them failing in the past few years.

              For leadership failures, the names Jerry Falwell, Jr., Rob Bell (not morally but going apostate), Mark Driscoll come to mind. Organizationally, we've watched the RCC deal with how they protected priests for years blow-up in their face and now we find the similar practices in SBC and the Mormon church. On a different level, we've watched other denominations like PC(USA) fall away from faithfulness or have messy splits like United Methodist Church.

              I'm sure issues like this occur in local churches as well. A local mega-church and a para-church ministry both recently made the news for concealing sexual abuse. I guess the difference is, the local groups faded out of the news pretty quickly, but the denominational scandals persist.

              I guess it's no wonder people are distrusting organized religion. It's not necessarily that they are falling away from Christ, but they are falling away from organizations that don't have their best interests in mind. In other words, they are rejecting leadership that serves the organization instead of the members.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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