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Why the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not for Today

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  • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

    What's the source of that quote? I don't think most Arminians would agree that Arminianism "elevated the free will of man above the sovereign initiative and power of God." That is how Calvinists often *portray* Arminianism, but Arminians don't see it that way. That, I believe, is more like Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism; of course, Calvinists tend to view Arminianism as Pelagianism by another name.
    In some ways, the two are very similar - provided that by Pelagianism, you are not referring to Augustine's strawman.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      In some ways, the two are very similar - provided that by Pelagianism, you are not referring to Augustine's strawman.
      I'll readily confess that my understanding of "Pelagian" and "Semi-Pelagian" comes almost entirely from the brief characterizations by Arminians (Picirilli, Forlines, Olson) and "Moderate Calvinists" (Geisler's dubious self-label). And unfortunately, even though they clearly try to speak precisely, they are inconsistent among themselves, and sometimes even *with* themselves, on some fine points. Depending on how one phrases things, I could well be more Semi-Pelagian than Arminian. I believe that man never takes the initiative in salvation, but I'm not convinced man is totally unable to respond apart from God's enabling grace. I think Arminianism packs too much into Prevenient Grace. Assuming the Wikipedia article is correct, my view of Original Sin has more in common with Catholicism and "the East" than with Protestantism, in that I do not believe in inherited guilt, but I do believe in Original Sin that corrupts to the extent that we will inevitably choose sin at some early point, and we will never seek God without His prior wooing, and in contrast to Calvinists, I believe He extends that wooing to all, not just the "chosen."
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

        I'll readily confess that my understanding of "Pelagian" and "Semi-Pelagian" comes almost entirely from the brief characterizations by Arminians (Picirilli, Forlines, Olson) and "Moderate Calvinists" (Geisler's dubious self-label). And unfortunately, even though they clearly try to speak precisely, they are inconsistent among themselves, and sometimes even *with* themselves, on some fine points. Depending on how one phrases things, I could well be more Semi-Pelagian than Arminian. I believe that man never takes the initiative in salvation, but I'm not convinced man is totally unable to respond apart from God's enabling grace. I think Arminianism packs too much into Prevenient Grace. Assuming the Wikipedia article is correct, my view of Original Sin has more in common with Catholicism and "the East" than with Protestantism, in that I do not believe in inherited guilt, but I do believe in Original Sin that corrupts to the extent that we will inevitably choose sin at some early point, and we will never seek God without His prior wooing, and in contrast to Calvinists, I believe He extends that wooing to all, not just the "chosen."
        I won't complain about that assessment. Though minor points need tweaking, it is as good a presentation as can be made within the word count.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

          What's the source of that quote? I don't think most Arminians would agree that Arminianism "elevated the free will of man above the sovereign initiative and power of God." That is how Calvinists often *portray* Arminianism, but Arminians don't see it that way. That, I believe, is more like Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism; of course, Calvinists tend to view Arminianism as Pelagianism by another name.
          Sparko had provided the link. https://g3min.org/calvinism-is-not-hyper-calvinism/


          I think we need new categories for the times. Like make up new ones from scratch.

          Comment


          • Some freeassociative observations: That Dave guy is quite entertaining. He seems to have no sense of self; I mean how he comes across to others. I actually find his perspective both interesting and somewhat unusual. I would be interested in his defense if he tried to take a more mellow approach. He seems to think he is the oracle at Delphi or the voice in the burning bush. He doesn't seem to answer criticism of his arguments just kind of "scoots around." I found the content of his Amazon book interesting but a bit of a stretch. I have observed an enormous amount if similarity between a pentacostal service, a primal ritual, and a high school pep rally. I know that sounds a bit of a stretch and almost funny, but all three have so many commonalities that I have often thought of trying to write an article about it. But I am not saying that they are all the same thing--a pagan ritual, just that there are overlaps. Growing up in the protestant church I found strange excesses all over the place. But if you use those excesses to negate the truth, well, uh, you are skating some thin river ice. I would be tempted to engage Dave in a bit of a dialogue, but I am uncertain of how well I would handle dealing with him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by The Lone Stranger View Post
              Some freeassociative observations: That Dave guy is quite entertaining. He seems to have no sense of self; I mean how he comes across to others. I actually find his perspective both interesting and somewhat unusual. I would be interested in his defense if he tried to take a more mellow approach. He seems to think he is the oracle at Delphi or the voice in the burning bush. He doesn't seem to answer criticism of his arguments just kind of "scoots around." I found the content of his Amazon book interesting but a bit of a stretch. I have observed an enormous amount if similarity between a pentacostal service, a primal ritual, and a high school pep rally. I know that sounds a bit of a stretch and almost funny, but all three have so many commonalities that I have often thought of trying to write an article about it. But I am not saying that they are all the same thing--a pagan ritual, just that there are overlaps. Growing up in the protestant church I found strange excesses all over the place. But if you use those excesses to negate the truth, well, uh, you are skating some thin river ice. I would be tempted to engage Dave in a bit of a dialogue, but I am uncertain of how well I would handle dealing with him.
              I've been away from the thread for a while. I'd forgotten who "Dave" was. IIRC, he was given a forced vacation and may not have returned. Without reviewing the thread, I'd say my recollection matches your observation: He doesn't "answer criticism," at least in that he doesn't reason from Scripture in making or defending his claims.

              I've mostly attended Pentecostal churches since getting "born again" around age 20 in early 1980. Loosely speaking, I'd say most have attempted to have the kind of service they see portrayed in 1 Cor. 12-14, with music roughly similar to what they see in, e.g., Psa. 149-150.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                I've been away from the thread for a while. I'd forgotten who "Dave" was. IIRC, he was given a forced vacation and may not have returned. Without reviewing the thread, I'd say my recollection matches your observation: He doesn't "answer criticism," at least in that he doesn't reason from Scripture in making or defending his claims.

                I've mostly attended Pentecostal churches since getting "born again" around age 20 in early 1980. Loosely speaking, I'd say most have attempted to have the kind of service they see portrayed in 1 Cor. 12-14, with music roughly similar to what they see in, e.g., Psa. 149-150.
                He made it quite clear that he felt he was beyond the rules of the board and after numerous warnings he was given a two week suspension but apparently has decided not to return and likely sought greener pastures.

                The best thing about him is that he raised theological issues which is something we want.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Lone Stranger View Post
                  Some freeassociative observations: That Dave guy is quite entertaining. He seems to have no sense of self; I mean how he comes across to others. I actually find his perspective both interesting and somewhat unusual. I would be interested in his defense if he tried to take a more mellow approach. He seems to think he is the oracle at Delphi or the voice in the burning bush. He doesn't seem to answer criticism of his arguments just kind of "scoots around." I found the content of his Amazon book interesting but a bit of a stretch. I have observed an enormous amount if similarity between a pentacostal service, a primal ritual, and a high school pep rally. I know that sounds a bit of a stretch and almost funny, but all three have so many commonalities that I have often thought of trying to write an article about it. But I am not saying that they are all the same thing--a pagan ritual, just that there are overlaps. Growing up in the protestant church I found strange excesses all over the place. But if you use those excesses to negate the truth, well, uh, you are skating some thin river ice. I would be tempted to engage Dave in a bit of a dialogue, but I am uncertain of how well I would handle dealing with him.
                  I confess I almost left TheologyWeb because of DaveL. I was certainly uneasy about posting anything and risk having him stomp all over me.
                  "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                  "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                    I confess I almost left TheologyWeb because of DaveL. I was certainly uneasy about posting anything and risk having him stomp all over me.
                    Never let a jerk run you off.

                    If worse comes to worser there is always the ignore function

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Never let a jerk run you off.

                      If worse comes to worser there is always the ignore function
                      Thanks. I am probably more conflict adverse than I should be.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                        Thanks. I am probably more conflict adverse than I should be.
                        Then you can't quit on us or we will hunt you down and kick your butt!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          Then you can't quit on us or we will hunt you down and kick your butt!
                          The squirrels have already submitted a double envelopment strategy so he can't escape the the raining down of acorns once/if it commences.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Points that I missed in your post.

                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            I believe that man never takes the initiative in salvation, but I'm not convinced man is totally unable to respond apart from God's enabling grace.
                            I'll accept the first phrase in your statement mainly because it would take an essay to address. The second would rely on a person never being able to do good except by God's intervention. That is denied by Christ himself, when he declared that the evil know how to do good (and do it.)

                            Assuming the Wikipedia article is correct, my view of Original Sin has more in common with Catholicism and "the East" than with Protestantism, in that I do not believe in inherited guilt, but I do believe in Original Sin that corrupts to the extent that we will inevitably choose sin at some early point, and we will never seek God without His prior wooing, and in contrast to Calvinists, I believe He extends that wooing to all, not just the "chosen."
                            No-one is guilty of things that he has not personally done (that he shouldn't have) or failed to do (that he should have done). To the extent that "original sin" MIGHT play a part, it would be the fallout that is inherited, not the sin itself. The codicil is that there are times when God will act to deny a person access to repentance, either for a limited period or permanently.

                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              The squirrels have already submitted a double envelopment strategy so he can't escape the the raining down of acorns once/if it commences.
                              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                The squirrels have already submitted a double envelopment strategy so he can't escape the the raining down of acorns once/if it commences.
                                Go for the eyes Boo! Go for the eyes!


                                I wonder how many will get the reference.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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