Why the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not for Today

[Sparko]

https://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Penteco.../dp/1500858080

We don't allow argument by weblink here, Dave. Make your argument and support it with links, but don't just post links.

[Dave L]

We don't allow argument by weblink here, Dave. Make your argument and support it with links, but don't just post links.

According to Curtis Edwards, Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery, Voodoo was the religion of African slaves. And even before slavery they would voodoo any religion they took part in. They had voodoo Catholicism for the main part.

Then after coming to Haitian and American shores, they voodooed whatever religion they encountered. Voodoo Methodism and voodoo Baptist churches, were common in Louisiana.

Wm. Seymour tried to voodoo the Church of God (Anderson) but got expelled. Shortly thereafter, he voodooed his Wesley Methodism at Azusa street in Los Angeles. He thought voodoo tongues were the same as Bible tongues. This became the Assemblies of God denomination with the Oneness United Pentecostal Church splitting off from them over their antitrinitarian views.

Curtis Edwards

Edwards, Curtis. Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery . Kindle Edition.

[Sparko]

According to Curtis Edwards, Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery, Voodoo was the religion of African slaves. And even before slavery they would voodoo any religion they took part in. They had voodoo Catholicism for the main part.

Then after coming to Haitian and American shores, they voodooed whatever religion they encountered. Voodoo Methodism and voodoo Baptist churches, were common in Louisiana.

Wm. Seymour tried to voodoo the Church of God (Anderson) but got expelled. Shortly thereafter, he voodooed his Wesley Methodism at Azusa street in Los Angeles. He thought voodoo tongues were the same as Bible tongues. This became the Assemblies of God denomination with the Oneness United Pentecostal Church splitting off from them over their antitrinitarian views.

Curtis Edwards

Edwards, Curtis. Pagan Pentecostalism: Its Roots: Sex, Sin & Slavery . Kindle Edition.

This Curtis Edwards you keep quoting from? Do you realize he is a Wesleyan Arminianist? You know, the antithesis of Calvinism? Believing in free will and all that?

https://curtisedwards.org/

[Dave L]

This Curtis Edwards you keep quoting from? Do you realize he is a Wesleyan Arminianist? You know, the antithesis of Calvinism? Believing in free will and all that?

https://curtisedwards.org/

One of the best commentaries is from Adam Clark, a Methodist. Some great scholars are in the Arminian camp. They are great in many areas except matters of sin and grace.

[Machinist]

Further proof Pentecostalism is a false movement. In the scriptures, people who spoke in tongues knew what they were saying. Today's tongue speakers do not. How is this? Paul says knowing what is said edifies. And tongue speakers knew what they were saying and became edified. Today's tongue speakers are not edified because they know not what they say.

For what it's worth, I did go to a church for many years where almost every Sunday, someone would speak in tongues and then someone else always interpreted it. I was always skeptical. It was always vague and one-size-fits all. I was part of a small group that promoted it. Looking back, there were some cringeworthy moments.

[Dave L]

For what it's worth, I did go to a church for many years where almost every Sunday, someone would speak in tongues and then someone else always interpreted it. I was always skeptical. It was always vague and one-size-fits all. I was part of a small group that promoted it. Looking back, there were some cringeworthy moments.

I started out as a Pentecostal. But had a hard time matching it to my salvation experience. It took years to settle in on the truth after leaving.

[Cow Poke]

Some people are replacing "Charismatic" with "continuationist" because the former, especially outside the U.S., is often considered synonymous with "Prosperity Gospel."

Interesting - to counter "cessationist?" (spellcheck doesn't like that word)

Various people mean different things when they use the terms. Some use "Pentecostal" in a mostly historical sense to refer to denominations and affiliations that arose around the beginning of the 20th-C. Newer groups with similar beliefs were "Neo-Pentecostal," but I have not heard that term for a while. Groups with similar beliefs that arose in mainline denominations around the mid-20th-C were "charismatic."

But then some people label based on particular doctrines, mainly nuances regarding glossolalia.

I do remember when our youth came back from a mission trip where some really fantastic things happened -- a number of people got saved, two couples got reunited, and the church had revival.... when I was sharing this with our Deacon Board, one of the old codgers asked... "um... Brother Poke... you ain't become one of them thar Ka-RIZ-matics, have you?"

[Machinist]

I started out as a Pentecostal. But had a hard time matching it to my salvation experience. It took years to settle in on the truth after leaving.

It's a matter of taste I suppose. These were good folks. As weird as it was, I didn't discern that these people produced any more or less Fruits of the Spirit than those who weren't of their teaching. One guy from our group tried to raise a deer from the dead. It was struck by a car. I had a mind to go out to where it was later on and drag it away so everyone would think that it really happened.

[Dave L]

It's a matter of taste I suppose. These were good folks. As weird as it was, I didn't discern that these people produced any more or less Fruits of the Spirit than those who weren't of their teaching. One guy from our group tried to raise a deer from the dead. It was struck by a car. I had a mind to go out to where it was later on and drag it away so everyone would think that it really happened.

The bunch I encountered tried to raise people from the dead...yikes.

[NorrinRadd]

Interesting - to counter "cessationist?" (spellcheck doesn't like that word)

Yes.

I do remember when our youth came back from a mission trip where some really fantastic things happened -- a number of people got saved, two couples got reunited, and the church had revival.... when I was sharing this with our Deacon Board, one of the old codgers asked... "um... Brother Poke... you ain't become one of them thar Ka-RIZ-matics, have you?"

I understand that scholars studying evangelism and missiology have observed that "signs and wonders" are considerably more common in the mission field where "plowing new ground" and where "power encounters" (mostly a John Wimber, Vineyard term, I believe) occur. (As I understand the term, "power encounters" happen where demonic forces such as witchcraft are openly manifested.)

[Cow Poke]

Yes.




I understand that scholars studying evangelism and missiology have observed that "signs and wonders" are considerably more common in the mission field where "plowing new ground" and where "power encounters" (mostly a John Wimber, Vineyard term, I believe) occur. (As I understand the term, "power encounters" happen where demonic forces such as witchcraft are openly manifested.)

Yes, we have heard credible stories of amazing things happening. And one of our missionaries, when asked why miracles "worked" over there, but not here, he simply smiles and says "because nobody told them God can't do miracles".

One of the fascinating things (to me) is the dreams and visions of Jesus appearing to Muslims all over the Arab world. I don't understand it, but it seems legit!

[Sparko]

One of the best commentaries is from Adam Clark, a Methodist. Some great scholars are in the Arminian camp. They are great in many areas except matters of sin and grace.

LOL, so you castigate us for being Arminians while using Arminians as "experts" to make various points you want to make?

If he is wrong on matters of free will, salvation and sin and grace, how can you trust he is right on anything else of less importance? You can't have it both ways, Dave. Once again your theology self destructs.

[tabibito]

Yes, we have heard credible stories of amazing things happening. And one of our missionaries, when asked why miracles "worked" over there, but not here, he simply smiles and says "because nobody told them God can't do miracles".

Yes! (save that "can't" is usually "won't" or "doesn't.") And the confident assertion raises doubts that are likely to cripple belief in anyone who believes that he does and will.

When my daughter was three, I dickered with her to loan one of her toys to a child care worker. The child care worker expressed amazement at what had happened, saying that all the books declared that it was not possible to bargain with a three year old in that way. I replied that we were just lucky that she hadn't read the books.

Neville the mudlark hasn't read the books that say only hummingbirds can fly backwards - so, he has twice flown backwards a few inches from my face while I was walking. The first time he was too close to see what he was doing properly, the second a bit further away - sure enough, he had his head turned over his shoulder so the he could see where he was going. One eye on what was behind, the other on me.

[Christianbookworm]

I'm partial to Molinism. Thrid option!

[Dave L]

Yes.




I understand that scholars studying evangelism and missiology have observed that "signs and wonders" are considerably more common in the mission field where "plowing new ground" and where "power encounters" (mostly a John Wimber, Vineyard term, I believe) occur. (As I understand the term, "power encounters" happen where demonic forces such as witchcraft are openly manifested.)

The signs and wonders gifts ended with the apostles. They were the proof of apostleship. Believers did not have them unless an apostle laid hands on them.

Paul put all of his friends on medicine in the epistles the gifts having then expired. You hear mention of miracles but no proof exists. Some demonic activity might be misinterpreted as gifts. BUT the prayer of faith still heals and produces miracles.