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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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An interview with a former Roman Catholic
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostThe work being burnt up ( purgation of dead work by fire according to the Church) is what we call purgatory.
Burning up work is a metaphor for judging the work as useless. Dismissing it in regards to rewards. Not literally burning it up. The works in question are past acts a person committed, not physical objects. They are done and over with. But God will review our works and if they are worthy, give us rewards, but if not, they are disregarded, i.e. they don't count. But a person's salvation is never in question. They still are saved, but without rewards for their useless works.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
How does that work (pardon the pun)? Are you saying a person does not suffer in pugatory, that he just stands there while some "work" is put on a bonfire or something?
Burning up work is a metaphor for judging the work as useless. Dismissing it in regards to rewards. Not literally burning it up. The works in question are past acts a person committed, not physical objects. They are done and over with. But God will review our works and if they are worthy, give us rewards, but if not, they are disregarded, i.e. they don't count. But a person's salvation is never in question. They still are saved, but without rewards for their useless works.
Unless you actually had righteous works, or works with good motives, all you have left is ashes.
ETA: and, yeah, I think that's what you're saying.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
How does that work (pardon the pun)? Are you saying a person does not suffer in pugatory, that he just stands there while some "work" is put on a bonfire or something?
Burning up work is a metaphor for judging the work as useless. Dismissing it in regards to rewards. Not literally burning it up. The works in question are past acts a person committed, not physical objects. They are done and over with. But God will review our works and if they are worthy, give us rewards, but if not, they are disregarded, i.e. they don't count. But a person's salvation is never in question. They still are saved, but without rewards for their useless works.
27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
I think it's more like putting ALL the "works" (good and bad) through the fire, and the unjust works (wood, hay and stubble) burn up, and only the just works (gold, silver and precious stone) remain.
Unless you actually had righteous works, or works with good motives, all you have left is ashes.
ETA: and, yeah, I think that's what you're saying.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
First, I'm not here to argue. But you do sound WAY different from the many many Catholics I deal with. In the area I now serve, most of the Catholics will be Hispanic, and I have never found a single one who knew that Salvation was possible "here and now". They believe "Salvation" is pretty much the property of the Church, and they can never have assurance that they "are saved".
ETA: Ooooooops -accidentally edited instead of responded!Last edited by Cow Poke; 11-11-2021, 01:08 PM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
I think the American RCC esp. in "Bible Belt" is somewhat different than RCC in other countries. I've been told by missionaries that Mexican RCC is much like what's described in the video. However, I have several RCC friends I do Prison Ministry with and in talking with them, they seem much more aligned with typical Protestant understanding of "Saved".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI have debated with myself for a while about posting this video. Many of you are aware that I have problems with RCC doctrine and have for many years. I haven't brought it up much lately because I am reluctant to offend some.
However, this video got me thinking that there are millions of people who are unaware that the RCC is a false religion that offers no hope in this life or in eternity. And as time goes by and the Lord's return grows nearer, I decided that if I don't share this video here, some will never hear the truth, outlined in scripture, about the Catholic church.
I do not with to offend anyone. I don't hate Catholics. I hate the lies that have been told for millennia by Catholic popes and priests in all their dealings with the people. And I am troubled by the wave of Protestant leaders who think that the evangelical church has much in common with Rome. There are irreconcilable differences, and those who think that the 2 can be in any way joined together are not abiding by God's word.
I don't care if there is no discussion here. If people wish to discuss the video, that is fine. I do not want any animosity or hard feelings. But I want to present the video so that those who think the RCC is "okay" may see that that is not the truth. And one of the greatest indications of hatred is to not point out the truths of God to people, but to let them continue in their false religion.
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For reference: Catholic Answers.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
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Originally posted by seanD View Post
There's so much wrong with the RCC from beginning to end, from its history to its present state, from its rituals to its sacraments, that I could probably write a 100k word post and still couldn't cover it all. So I'll just sum it up in two words: Pope Francis.
Personally, I have issues with most "formal" churches, mainly RCC and EOC, but also most Lutheran and Anglican/Episcopal. To me, they import way too much baggage from the Obsolete Covenant.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
But you said "some go through it" - indicating people, not just their work, yes?
In terms of what the Catholic Church says about Salvation, let me submit two pieces of evidence; the first is Saint Thomas Aquinas from the Summa Theologica and from two commentaries on different books of the Bible. Some back story is that St Thomas Aquinas is considered a "Doctor of the Church". Essentially meaning one of the main influences on Church Theology.
"Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them ( the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law) but in faith alone. -Commentary on Timothy chapter 1 lecture 3
With respect to being made just by works of the Law, a man does not seem to be justified by them because the sacraments of the Old law did not confer grace... Again if there were any in the Old law who were just, they were not made just through the law but only by the faith of Christ. (Commentary on Galatians chapter 2 lecture 4).
In the Summa Theologica Aquinas writes:
"I answer that: Christ's Passion is the proper cause of the forgiveness of sins in three ways. First of all, by way of exciting our charity, because, as the Apostle says (Romans 5:8) : "God commendeth His charity towards us: because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time, Christ died for us."... according to Luke 7:47: "Many sin are forgiven her because she hath loved much." Secondly, Christ's Passion causes forgiveness by way of redemption. For since He is our head, then, by the Passion which He endured from love and obedience, He delivered us as His members from our sins, as by the price of His Passion.... Thirdly, by way of efficiency, inasmuch as Christ's flesh, wherein He endured the Passion, is the instrument of the Godhead, so that His sufferings and actions operate with Divine power for expelling sin." -Summa Theologica Question 49.
The point I am establishing is that the Catholic Church teaches that we are only justified through faith in Christ Jesus. There is no official teaching that states that your personal works will merit your salvation. What is taught about works frankly appears in the Epistle of St. James 2:14-26 and the Gospel of St. Matthew 25: 31-46.
Both sets of verses for reference first Matthew 25:31-46: "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink; I was a stranger and you welcomed me; I was naked and you clothed me; I was ill and you took care of me; I was in prison and you came to visit me.“Then the righteous will say to him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you something to eat, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison and come to visit you?’ And the King will answer, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat; I was thirsty and you did not give me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you did not welcome me; I was naked and you did not give me any clothing; I was ill and in prison and you did not visit me.’
“Then they will ask him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison and not minister to you?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you failed to do for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you faiIled to do for me.’ And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter eternal life.”
And in the letter of St James:
"What good is it, my brethren, if someone claims to have faith but does not have good works? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is naked and lacks his or her daily food. If one of you says to such a person, Go in peace; keep warm and eat well,” but does not take care of that person’s physical needs, what is the good of that? In the same way, faith by itself is dead if it does not have works.
But perhaps someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and by works I will show you my faith. You believe that there is one God. You do well to assert that. But even the demons believe and tremble. You fool! Do you want proof that faith without works is futile? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? Thus, you can see that his faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works.
Both of these passages greatly imply and strongly suggest the exact opposite of what I heard Justin Peters suggest in the clip which was that you can sin after you believe in Christ and still be saved. Peters does not address a passage in Hebrews 6:4-6 either with his suggestion:
"For when people have once been enlightened and have experienced the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then in spite of all this have fallen away, it is impossible to restore them again to repentance. For they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves once again and are holding him up to contempt."
The above verses pretty well implies that you can't just claim redemption in Christ Jesus and go out and actively commit sin. According to the Catholic Church if we are truly Justified in Christ then it will be evidenced "with the remission of sins all these infused at the same time; faith hope and charity. For faith unless hope and charity be added to it neither unites one perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of the body. For this reason it is most truly said that "faith without works is dead" James 2:17) and is of no profit and 'in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith, which worketh by charity" (Gal. 5;6, 6;15) Doctrine on Justification, Chapter 5 Council of Trent.
Just 2 things to add faith is synonymous with belief and the thought that James is talking about "belief" goes to the verse "Even the demons believe and shudder."
A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
Both of these passages greatly imply and strongly suggest the exact opposite of what I heard Justin Peters suggest in the clip which was that you can sin after you believe in Christ and still be saved. Peters does not address a passage in Hebrews 6:4-6 either with his suggestion:
"For when people have once been enlightened and have experienced the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then in spite of all this have fallen away, it is impossible to restore them again to repentance. For they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves once again and are holding him up to contempt."
The above verses pretty well implies that you can't just claim redemption in Christ Jesus and go out and actively commit sin. According to the Catholic Church if we are truly Justified in Christ then it will be evidenced "with the remission of sins all these infused at the same time; faith hope and charity. For faith unless hope and charity be added to it neither unites one perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of the body. For this reason it is most truly said that "faith without works is dead" James 2:17) and is of no profit and 'in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith, which worketh by charity" (Gal. 5;6, 6;15) Doctrine on Justification, Chapter 5 Council of Trent.
Just 2 things to add faith is synonymous with belief and the thought that James is talking about "belief" goes to the verse "Even the demons believe and shudder."
Those of us with a more or less classical Arminian soteriology would say that yes, we can sin and still be saved, because Gal. 3 suggests we "stay saved" the same way we "got saved" -- by faith, not works. And we would say that Jas. 5:15 and 1 John 1:8-10 expects we will occasionally sin, and be forgiven. But we would also say that 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Eph. 5:5 teach that persistent sin can ultimately disqualify us, presumably by hardening our hearts to the point that we willfully abandon the Faith (Heb. 10), in which case there is no remedy (Heb. 6).Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
You seem to be implying that any and every sin post salvation erases that salvation. And bringing in that Hebrews passage suggests that is irrevocable. I don't really think that's what you intend, but that does seem where your reasoning leads.
Those of us with a more or less classical Arminian soteriology would say that yes, we can sin and still be saved, because Gal. 3 suggests we "stay saved" the same way we "got saved" -- by faith, not works. And we would say that Jas. 5:15 and 1 John 1:8-10 expects we will occasionally sin, and be forgiven. But we would also say that 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Eph. 5:5 teach that persistent sin can ultimately disqualify us, presumably by hardening our hearts to the point that we willfully abandon the Faith (Heb. 10), in which case there is no remedy (Heb. 6).A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
My (Protestant Evangelical) husband and I were talking and I mentioned your comments. He said that under the umbrella of "how we understand justification" Catholics are considered Classical Arminians. Which makes sense in light of your description on the kind of sins that can disqualify a person inside Classical Arminianism. In Catholicism we define this as mortal and venial sin. Venial sin is the non disqualifier or the mundane stuff and mortal sin are the things which put one in danger of the loss of final salvation. (I haven't gotten to that charge Gendren levels but I wanted to mention that distinctions are made, though in my previous post I was deliberately being general)Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThere's so much wrong with the RCC from beginning to end, from its history to its present state, from its rituals to its sacraments, that I could probably write a 100k word post and still couldn't cover it all. So I'll just sum it up in two words: Pope Francis.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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