An interview with a former Roman Catholic

[mossrose]

He certainly had no "merit", yet Christ proclaimed that he would be with Christ that very day. (I'm aware of the argument about the comma placed before or after the word "today", but still none of the accounts mention anything about merit or conditions for this man to be with Him in Paradise)

From everything I can find, this "doctrine" of purgatory didn't become a part of the Catholic Church's teachings until the 12th Century.

It seems to me (and I'm trying to be careful here) that this is similar to some of the "doctrines" in Mormonism where, if they could, they'd love to pretend that never was a teaching. It seems clear to me, in everything I'm reading on this, both in objections to the Catholic Church and defenses of the doctrine of purgatory, that is is a very problematic teaching.

While so many sources from Catholic websites try to make it crystal clear that Catholicism is NOT a "works based Salvation", in my opinion, Purgatory says otherwise.

If somebody gets 'sidelined' to Purgatory before they can make it into Heaven due to a lack of 'merit', and there's nothing they can do themselves in Purgatory to "add to" that "merit" -- then how is that not 'dependent upon the Church' (other Catholics) to "add to" that person's merit by doing things that actually are "works" like pouring holy water onto the ground, or dedicating a Mass to that individual, or being granted an "indulgence"...

It sounds like there are attempts to use fancy names (or different classes of grace) to avoid calling it what it is -- if you don't have sufficient "merit" to get into Heaven when you die, then you are dependent upon the "merit" of others to pull you across the line.

Maybe this is so problematic for me because I have always heard Grace defined as "unmerited favor". So it's very interesting to me that I keep seeing "merit" as what is needed to bypass Purgatory, or for others to "add to" your "merit" to get you out.

You are preaching to the choir, Pastor. I am in total agreement with you. I brought up the thief because he did no works except believe and repent. He wasn't baptized, or take communion, or have anybody pray for him after he was dead, or any such thing that various religions teach must be done to attain salvation.

He had only the Lord's reassurance that he would, indeed, be with Christ that very day.

[Cow Poke]

You are preaching to the choir, Pastor.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, just continuing your thought and thinking through it.

I am in total agreement with you. I brought up the thief because he did no works except believe and repent. He wasn't baptized, or take communion or any such thing that various religions teach must be done to attain salvation.

You'd think that at least ONE of the Gospel writers would have mentioned the reason why this man was exempt from the requirement of works, if there were such a requirement.

We're good! You just made me think more.

[Cow Poke]

So, I have numerous Catholic friends (Texas Hispanics tend to have grown up in Catholicism) who claim to be Christians, and I respect the fact that they believe in Jesus as the Son of God. But when I ask about Purgatory, they'll say things like "we just ignore that part", or "I don't know what to tell you". Or, they'll admit that a Catholic in Purgatory needs other Catholics to intervene in their final sanctification.

None of them can tell me how long a person is in Purgatory, and there's no way to know that they finally got released to go to Heaven. When asked "how do you know when it's time to stop praying for their "added merit", they tell me they don't know. Or if I ask them "how do you know you have attained sufficient merit", they can't tell me.

I have never received a good explanation for how that is NOT part of a "works based religion".

When I win a Catholic to a saving faith in Christ, it's usually Purgatory that is one of the biggest issues. Being saved by Grace through faith - and NOT of works - is True Grace. The fact that Paul makes such a point of it NOT being works makes you look at what James says either as contradictory, or confirmation of a genuine saving faith that WILL result in good works.

[mossrose]

Yeah, I'm aware of that, just continuing your thought and thinking through it.



You'd think that at least ONE of the Gospel writers would have mentioned the reason why this man was exempt from the requirement of works, if there were such a requirement.

We're good! You just made me think more.

As you have done for me, more than once.

[tabibito]

He certainly had no "merit", yet Christ proclaimed that he would be with Christ that very day. (I'm aware of the argument about the comma placed before or after the word "today", but still none of the accounts mention anything about merit or conditions for this man to be with Him in Paradise)

Is repentance not something that a person does? Is it not a work? And was repentance the sum of what that brigand did? There was also a modicum of preaching in line with that repentance. Would that not qualify as producing works in keeping with repentance; as much as was possible given the circumstances - which Luke notes is what Paul did preach.
This same account is also use to "demonstrate" that baptism is not a necessity, and the response is the same to both arguments. If it happens that God on occasion provides an exemption to the usual procedures, we are not entitled to presume that the exemption is applicable in all circumstances.

Likewise, if a particular requirement is enacted in specific circumstances, we have no basis for considering that requirement to be applicable in all circumstances. "Go sell all you have and give to the poor" never has been a requirement imposed on all believers.

[NorrinRadd]

Yeah, we're gonna disagree on what James was saying about works.

I think he is saying, theologically, exactly the same thing as Paul. But while Paul emphasizes the "cause," which is trusting faith, James emphasizes the "effect," which is the resulting good works. James stresses that so-called-"faith", which is merely mental agreement and does not produce good and loving works, is not a genuine, saving faith. He points to the Old Testament examples of Abraham and Rahab to show that their faith saved them—and we know this because their "faith" resulted in obedience and courageous good works for God and His people. Their works are evidence of their faith, it is not the cause of it.

I believe James is simply saying that faith saves, but it needs to be genuine faith, which results in good works.

So, how bout we focus on Purgatory?

I have never understood how people can actually read what Paul and James say, and still conclude they are incompatible.

Eph. 2:8-9 -- Saved apart from works

Eph. 2:10 -- Works are to *result*.

Tit. 3:5-7 -- Saved apart from works.

Tit. 3:10 -- Works are to result.

Gal. 3 -- We continue our salvation the way it began, by faith, not works.

Gal. 5:6 -- Faith "works" by love.

Jas. 2:18 -- "Works" are the demonstration and evidence of faith, not an addition to it. In the context of Jas. 2, the "works" are mainly acts of love.

[tabibito]

I have never understood how people can actually read what Paul and James say, and still conclude they are incompatible.

Eph. 2:8-9 -- Saved apart from works

Eph. 2:10 -- Works are to *result*.

Tit. 3:5-7 -- Saved apart from works.

Tit. 3:10 -- Works are to result.

Gal. 3 -- We continue our salvation the way it began, by faith, not works.

Gal. 5:6 -- Faith "works" by love.

Jas. 2:18 -- "Works" are the demonstration and evidence of faith, not an addition to it. In the context of Jas. 2, the "works" are mainly acts of love.

Of course, if you read pistos (faith) as "belief" and not as "loyalty," a conflict between Paul and James is inevitable.

[NorrinRadd]

Of course, if you read pistos (faith) as "belief" and not as "loyalty," a conflict between Paul and James is inevitable.

I don't see why.

[NorrinRadd]

FWIW --

Articles from Catholic Answers on...

-- "Merit"

-- "Purgatory" (encyclopedia entry)

-- "What Does the Catholic Church Teach about Purgatory?"

-- "Is Purgatory in the Bible?"

-- "What the Early Church Believed about Purgatory"

[tabibito]

I don't see why.

On technical grounds, perhaps it is not so, but the imputed meanings applied to the distinction do make a difference. Paul does not say that good works are unnecessary, in fact he says - explicitly - that those who do not eschew sin and produce good works inherit nothing of heaven.
1 Cor 6:7-10 for example - the actions listed WERE committed by (at least) some of the believers, and a believer who continues those actions will not be spared. Paul repeats the same claim in Galatians 5: 19-21 and again in Ephesians 5:3-6.
So yes: Paul and James are in agreement - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

[rogue06]

I have never understood how people can actually read what Paul and James say, and still conclude they are incompatible.

Eph. 2:8-9 -- Saved apart from works

Eph. 2:10 -- Works are to *result*.

Tit. 3:5-7 -- Saved apart from works.

Tit. 3:10 -- Works are to result.

Gal. 3 -- We continue our salvation the way it began, by faith, not works.

Gal. 5:6 -- Faith "works" by love.

Jas. 2:18 -- "Works" are the demonstration and evidence of faith, not an addition to it. In the context of Jas. 2, the "works" are mainly acts of love.

A surface reading of and comparison of Ephesians 2:8–9 and James 2:14-18 could easily lead to it, but as you say when you take them in context it becomes apparent that they were both arguing the same point but just approaching it from opposite ends.

[Cow Poke]

On technical grounds, perhaps it is not so, but the imputed meanings applied to the distinction do make a difference. Paul does not say that good works are unnecessary, in fact he says - explicitly - that those who do not eschew sin and produce good works inherit nothing of heaven.
1 Cor 6:7-10 for example - the actions listed WERE committed by (at least) some of the believers, and a believer who continues those actions will not be spared. Paul repeats the same claim in Galatians 5: 19-21 and again in Ephesians 5:3-6.
So yes: Paul and James are in agreement - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

So, you believe in works-based Salvation?

[Cow Poke]

To me, it's like Catholicism created (or accepted as doctrine) this "purgatory" concept in the 12th century, abused its use for a time, and now are in the spot of having to rationalize and justify the teaching of it by twisting terms and coming up with "explanations" that require redefinition of words, like two meanings of "Grace".

Is not "unmerited favor" an acceptable definition of Grace?

And it's not just about "works" - it extends "works" to be required by some on behalf of others. Living people have to "do works" on behalf of persons who are dead and no longer can "add to" their own merit.

Where do we find, in God's word, anybody who is dependent upon other human beings for their arrival in Heaven?

(I just finished reading the "Catholic Answers" to the fact that there is one mediator between man and God, and that is Christ Jesus.)

[tabibito]

So, you believe in works-based Salvation?

I take it as axiomatic that works without faith are as dead as faith without works.

Is not "unmerited favor" an acceptable definition of Grace?

It is an acceptable definition - provided that one does not presume upon grace. A presidential pardon is an unmerited favour (presumably), but it is no licence to go on and repeat offences (presumably).

[Cow Poke]

I take it as axiomatic that works without faith are as dead as faith without works.

I agree, but see it differently - BECAUSE we have faith, we demonstrate it by works. BECAUSE we have received Grace, we WANT to extend grace to others.

It is an acceptable definition - provided that one does not presume upon grace. A presidential pardon is an unmerited favour (presumably), but it is no licence to go on and repeat offences (presumably).

So the life one lives can either demonstrate that the faith was genuine, or not.

But to extend that to MY works "adding to" the "merit" of somebody trapped in Purgatory just blows my mind.