Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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9Marks
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.
One of those Churches is near me.
Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.
So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
Double down on your drilling down, brother!
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.
One of those Churches is near me.
Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.
So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.
One of those Churches is near me.
Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.
So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership"."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.
One of those Churches is near me.
Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.
So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
The Wartburg Watch write up from 2017:
Then there's Together for the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition as well as Ligonier Ministries (and others) that promote Dever's 9Marks. Not only that, Christianity Today has recommended Dever's 9Marks several times in recent articles. With all this promotion, it's incredible to be reminded that the 9Marks have only been around for about 20 years.
Naturally enough - the source may not be kosher, and its assessment of the roles of wives and husbands may not be considered appropriate by some. (it provides a precis of both 9marks and its own teachings)
Mark Dever and 9Marks have a very strange understanding of submission. They demand it! This is so detrimental to the healthy functioning of a body of believers and to the health of a marriage. When a pastor teaches that a husband should expect submission from his wife based upon his office as head, he is causing division. In marriage, the husband is called to submit to the wife, just as the wife is to submit to her husband. He is to love her. Love is sacrificial and submissive. The beauty of a loving marriage is mutual submission. The husband is built up by the respect, nurture, and empathy given by the wife. The wife is built up by the respect, nurture and empathy given by the husband. They are together in Christ.
When women are treated as second class citizens at a church, or are kept separate from the men folk, problems arise in the body. I have witnessed an unloving spirit at the 9Marks churches I have attended. They lacked empathy. I think it was a direct result of the authoritarian teaching requiring submission to an office, whether to pastor/elder or husband. They improperly enforce gender roles.
ETA: Aaaand a follow up article from the same site, personal (anecdotatal) testimony. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/02/...d-with-9marks/Last edited by tabibito; 08-16-2021, 11:34 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The outline is good but alarm bells are ringing. I can't pinpoint where the problem is, apart from a general vulnerability to skewed interpretations and manipulation. (but that criticism is as readily applicable to scripture.)That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
I don't remember that church map when I last looked at the site. I looked up my area and I've got about 7 listed. I haven't visited any of them so don't know anything more. 9 Marks certainly seems to be spreading.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
- 1 like
Comment
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
From what I've read, the leadership of the movement is starting to teeter left politically. That's the problem with these "movements"... they use the Bible as a framework and let fallible men fill in the spaces. If I were you (and I know I lack the pastoral years you have so take that with a grain of salt) I'd tell the dear sister that while 9Marks has some biblically based ideas which your church is already implementing, you will not be taking a stand on, or crediting, the movement itself as political issues have begun to surround the conversation1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
geh?! - Did you mean that post for CP?That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostAnybody can take anything and turn it around into a perversion of it. Hard to say if that's what has happened in this case or if there really is something erroneous about the concept.
Double down on your drilling down, brother!
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
- 1 like
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostInteresting. I don't see anything wrong with it on the surface, from a Protestant POV. There's no real standard for choosing leaders,
and the section on discipline is rather short on details, but that's typical of Protestantism.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
9marks is too easy to redirect, it seems.
The Wartburg Watch write up from 2017:
Then there's Together for the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition as well as Ligonier Ministries (and others) that promote Dever's 9Marks. Not only that, Christianity Today has recommended Dever's 9Marks several times in recent articles. With all this promotion, it's incredible to be reminded that the 9Marks have only been around for about 20 years.
Naturally enough - the source may not be kosher, and its assessment of the roles of wives and husbands may not be considered appropriate by some. (it provides a precis of both 9marks and its own teachings)
Mark Dever and 9Marks have a very strange understanding of submission. They demand it! This is so detrimental to the healthy functioning of a body of believers and to the health of a marriage. When a pastor teaches that a husband should expect submission from his wife based upon his office as head, he is causing division. In marriage, the husband is called to submit to the wife, just as the wife is to submit to her husband. He is to love her. Love is sacrificial and submissive. The beauty of a loving marriage is mutual submission. The husband is built up by the respect, nurture, and empathy given by the wife. The wife is built up by the respect, nurture and empathy given by the husband. They are together in Christ.
When women are treated as second class citizens at a church, or are kept separate from the men folk, problems arise in the body. I have witnessed an unloving spirit at the 9Marks churches I have attended. They lacked empathy. I think it was a direct result of the authoritarian teaching requiring submission to an office, whether to pastor/elder or husband. They improperly enforce gender roles.
ETA: Aaaand a follow up article from the same site, personal (anecdotatal) testimony. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/02/...d-with-9marks/
But thanks for the info.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
From what I've read, the leadership of the movement is starting to teeter left politically. That's the problem with these "movements"... they use the Bible as a framework and let fallible men fill in the spaces. If I were you (and I know I lack the pastoral years you have so take that with a grain of salt) I'd tell the dear sister that while 9Marks has some biblically based ideas which your church is already implementing, you will not be taking a stand on, or crediting, the movement itself as political issues have begun to surround the conversationThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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