9Marks

[Cow Poke]

I'll be interested to hear you conclude about the ministry as well.

Me?

[Sparko]

I didn't see anything wrong on their website, but I have a bit of a suspicious feeling about it, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Seems a bit gimmicky.

[Cow Poke]

Reminds me of the way Rick Warren's Purpose Driven stuff spread. It's just another gimmick in my opinion.

Yeah, we didn't do that, either -- or the whole Prayer of Jabez movement.

The principles themselves look strong, and since we're already "there", I have no need for their outline.

I was really curious if anybody else had heard of them, because I sure hadn't.

[Cow Poke]

I didn't see anything wrong on their website, but I have a bit of a suspicious feeling about it, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Seems a bit gimmicky.

Me too... it's like the beginning foundaitons of a cult or something, but "all good" from the 50,000 foot view.

[rogue06]

I think we're doing a lot of right things for the right reason, and the fact that it may sound like an outline of the 9Mark stuff, I still get my marching orders from much a MUCH Higher Office.

Mrs. CP?

[Cow Poke]

Mrs. CP?

Her, too.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Me?

Sorry. My brain sometimes runs faster than my fingers. What I meant is "I look forward to seeing what you conclude." Which seems so far, they're ok but if your following Scripture, you don't need their help.

[NorrinRadd]

9marks is too easy to redirect, it seems.

The Wartburg Watch write up from 2017:
Then there's Together for the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition as well as Ligonier Ministries (and others) that promote Dever's 9Marks. Not only that, Christianity Today has recommended Dever's 9Marks several times in recent articles. With all this promotion, it's incredible to be reminded that the 9Marks have only been around for about 20 years.

Naturally enough - the source may not be kosher, and its assessment of the roles of wives and husbands may not be considered appropriate by some. (it provides a precis of both 9marks and its own teachings)

Mark Dever and 9Marks have a very strange understanding of submission. They demand it! This is so detrimental to the healthy functioning of a body of believers and to the health of a marriage. When a pastor teaches that a husband should expect submission from his wife based upon his office as head, he is causing division. In marriage, the husband is called to submit to the wife, just as the wife is to submit to her husband. He is to love her. Love is sacrificial and submissive. The beauty of a loving marriage is mutual submission. The husband is built up by the respect, nurture, and empathy given by the wife. The wife is built up by the respect, nurture and empathy given by the husband. They are together in Christ.

When women are treated as second class citizens at a church, or are kept separate from the men folk, problems arise in the body. I have witnessed an unloving spirit at the 9Marks churches I have attended. They lacked empathy. I think it was a direct result of the authoritarian teaching requiring submission to an office, whether to pastor/elder or husband. They improperly enforce gender roles.

ETA: Aaaand a follow up article from the same site, personal (anecdotatal) testimony. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/02/...d-with-9marks/

Good Lord! If I attended a church like that, it wouldn't be a month before I was expelled and a big Rom. 16:17 poster with my face posted on the door.

[tabibito]

Good Lord! If I attended a church like that, it wouldn't be a month before I was expelled and a big Rom. 16:17 poster with my face posted on the door.

You would last that long? Wow!

[Cow Poke]

Sorry. My brain sometimes runs faster than my fingers. What I meant is "I look forward to seeing what you conclude." Which seems so far, they're ok but if your following Scripture, you don't need their help.

Yeah, maybe that!

[tabibito]

OK - the nine points. Maybe work through them 1 by 1?

1/ Preaching: Preaching should be expositional.
2/ Theology: Doctrine should be sound, show right thinking about God, and be fully in accord with scripture. [(No Chalcedonian church has that last one.)]
3/ Gospel: Good news. What God has done to bring salvation to humanity.
4/ Conversion: "Conversion recognizes that only God can save, and that he saves individuals by enabling them to respond to the gospel message through repenting of sin and trusting in Christ."
5/ Evangelism: "Evangelism is simply telling non-Christians the good news about what Jesus Christ has done to save sinners and urging them to repent and believe.

1. Preach the whole gospel, even the hard news about God’s wrath against our sin.
2. Call people to repent of their sins and trust in Christ.
3. Make it clear that believing in Christ is costly, but worth it."

6/ Membership: Every Christian should make to attend, love, serve, and submit to a local church.
7/ Discipline: Includes training in righteousness and invoking penalties where appropriate.
8/ Discipleship: Developing individual holiness.
9/ Leadership: "each local church should be led by a plurality of godly, qualified men called elders."

[Cow Poke]

OK - the nine points. Maybe work through them 1 by 1?

1/ Preaching: Preaching should be expositional.
2/ Theology: Doctrine should be sound, show right thinking about God, and be fully in accord with scripture. [(No Chalcedonian church has that last one.)]
3/ Gospel: Good news. What God has done to bring salvation to humanity.
4/ Conversion: "Conversion recognizes that only God can save, and that he saves individuals by enabling them to respond to the gospel message through repenting of sin and trusting in Christ."
5/ Evangelism: "Evangelism is simply telling non-Christians the good news about what Jesus Christ has done to save sinners and urging them to repent and believe.

1. Preach the whole gospel, even the hard news about God’s wrath against our sin.
2. Call people to repent of their sins and trust in Christ.
3. Make it clear that believing in Christ is costly, but worth it."

6/ Membership: Every Christian should make to attend, love, serve, and submit to a local church.
7/ Discipline: Includes training in righteousness and invoking penalties where appropriate.
8/ Discipleship: Developing individual holiness.
9/ Leadership: "each local church should be led by a plurality of godly, qualified men called elders."

I think the only one I might question is #9, in that there should be a pastor or lead elder or.... unless I misunderstand the "plurality of elders"....

And #1 - I would say "expository", but I'm sure it's the same intent.

And #7 -- a little too much focus on punishment, and not enough on restoration.

[Cow Poke]

Anybody know why 9? Why not 7 or 10?

Am I missing something really obvious?

[tabibito]

Anybody know why 9? Why not 7 or 10?

One person will identify 7 another might find 10 or 12. For mine, I would have presented preaching and gospel as sub-headings under one encompassing heading.

Also for mine:

1/ Whose exposition will always give rise to questions, so it is not really a basic issue. No real argument can be advanced in opposition.
2/ Again - no argument.
3/ Much too restricted a concept of what the gospel is.
4/ Horribly inadequate.
5/ Likewise.
6/ No argument - (I missed "commitment" from what should have been "make a commitment to")
7/ Discipline - An explicit reference to developing self-discipline is missing, though it can be inferred.
8/ No mention of dealing with and overcoming sin.
9/ A council of leaders, with a chairman, seems to have been the pro forma for the first Jerusalem church. (Note: I use "elder" to denote anyone in position of responsibility.)

Any number of churches could be completely derailed, whilst yet being able to conform with these marks.

[NorrinRadd]

Anybody know why 9? Why not 7 or 10?

Am I missing something really obvious?

I dunno, some kind of trinity of trinities super-perfection?