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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    OK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.

    One of those Churches is near me.

    Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.

    So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
    The outline is good but alarm bells are ringing. I can't pinpoint where the problem is, apart from a general vulnerability to skewed interpretations and manipulation. (but that criticism is as readily applicable to scripture.)
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      Absolutely not. She recognizes the biblical model of men as deacons, elders and pastors.
      Yuh!


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        OK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.

        One of those Churches is near me.

        Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.

        So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
        Anybody can take anything and turn it around into a perversion of it. Hard to say if that's what has happened in this case or if there really is something erroneous about the concept.


        Double down on your drilling down, brother!


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #19
          I'll be interested to hear you conclude about the ministry as well.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            OK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.

            One of those Churches is near me.

            Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.

            So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
            Interesting. I don't see anything wrong with it on the surface, from a Protestant POV. There's no real standard for choosing leaders, and the section on discipline is rather short on details, but that's typical of Protestantism.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              OK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.

              One of those Churches is near me.

              Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.

              So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
              I don't remember that church map when I last looked at the site. I looked up my area and I've got about 7 listed. I haven't visited any of them so don't know anything more. 9 Marks certainly seems to be spreading.
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                OK, so this is interesting. 9Marks has a website that plots the locations of Churches who are using the 9Marks model.

                One of those Churches is near me.

                Their pastors (two men "co-pastoring") stopped by my office when I first moved to this town, and, after a short visit, I showed them the door and let them know they were no longer welcome at our facility.

                So far, the only "black mark" I see is that the only 9Marks Church I actually know (only discovered this today by doing a search) has... um... "questionable leadership".
                9marks is too easy to redirect, it seems.
                The Wartburg Watch write up from 2017:
                Then there's Together for the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition as well as Ligonier Ministries (and others) that promote Dever's 9Marks. Not only that, Christianity Today has recommended Dever's 9Marks several times in recent articles. With all this promotion, it's incredible to be reminded that the 9Marks have only been around for about 20 years.



                Naturally enough - the source may not be kosher, and its assessment of the roles of wives and husbands may not be considered appropriate by some. (it provides a precis of both 9marks and its own teachings)

                Mark Dever and 9Marks have a very strange understanding of submission. They demand it! This is so detrimental to the healthy functioning of a body of believers and to the health of a marriage. When a pastor teaches that a husband should expect submission from his wife based upon his office as head, he is causing division. In marriage, the husband is called to submit to the wife, just as the wife is to submit to her husband. He is to love her. Love is sacrificial and submissive. The beauty of a loving marriage is mutual submission. The husband is built up by the respect, nurture, and empathy given by the wife. The wife is built up by the respect, nurture and empathy given by the husband. They are together in Christ.

                When women are treated as second class citizens at a church, or are kept separate from the men folk, problems arise in the body. I have witnessed an unloving spirit at the 9Marks churches I have attended. They lacked empathy. I think it was a direct result of the authoritarian teaching requiring submission to an office, whether to pastor/elder or husband. They improperly enforce gender roles.



                ETA: Aaaand a follow up article from the same site, personal (anecdotatal) testimony. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/02/...d-with-9marks/
                Last edited by tabibito; 08-16-2021, 12:34 PM.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  The outline is good but alarm bells are ringing. I can't pinpoint where the problem is, apart from a general vulnerability to skewed interpretations and manipulation. (but that criticism is as readily applicable to scripture.)
                  From what I've read, the leadership of the movement is starting to teeter left politically. That's the problem with these "movements"... they use the Bible as a framework and let fallible men fill in the spaces. If I were you (and I know I lack the pastoral years you have so take that with a grain of salt) I'd tell the dear sister that while 9Marks has some biblically based ideas which your church is already implementing, you will not be taking a stand on, or crediting, the movement itself as political issues have begun to surround the conversation
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                    I don't remember that church map when I last looked at the site. I looked up my area and I've got about 7 listed. I haven't visited any of them so don't know anything more. 9 Marks certainly seems to be spreading.
                    Reminds me of the way Rick Warren's Purpose Driven stuff spread. It's just another gimmick in my opinion.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                      From what I've read, the leadership of the movement is starting to teeter left politically. That's the problem with these "movements"... they use the Bible as a framework and let fallible men fill in the spaces. If I were you (and I know I lack the pastoral years you have so take that with a grain of salt) I'd tell the dear sister that while 9Marks has some biblically based ideas which your church is already implementing, you will not be taking a stand on, or crediting, the movement itself as political issues have begun to surround the conversation
                      geh?! - Did you mean that post for CP?
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        geh?! - Did you mean that post for CP?
                        Yeah. Sorry.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          Anybody can take anything and turn it around into a perversion of it. Hard to say if that's what has happened in this case or if there really is something erroneous about the concept.
                          These guys - the two pastors.... well, you know what I think of my wife's spiritual gift of disernment, yes? She said they give her the creeps.

                          Double down on your drilling down, brother!
                          Gonna!

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Interesting. I don't see anything wrong with it on the surface, from a Protestant POV. There's no real standard for choosing leaders,
                            They point to the qualifications in the Scriptures concerning elders, deacons and overseers.

                            and the section on discipline is rather short on details, but that's typical of Protestantism.
                            Jesus makes it perfectly clear in Matt 18, so...

                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              9marks is too easy to redirect, it seems.
                              The Wartburg Watch write up from 2017:
                              Then there's Together for the Gospel and The Gospel Coalition as well as Ligonier Ministries (and others) that promote Dever's 9Marks. Not only that, Christianity Today has recommended Dever's 9Marks several times in recent articles. With all this promotion, it's incredible to be reminded that the 9Marks have only been around for about 20 years.



                              Naturally enough - the source may not be kosher, and its assessment of the roles of wives and husbands may not be considered appropriate by some. (it provides a precis of both 9marks and its own teachings)

                              Mark Dever and 9Marks have a very strange understanding of submission. They demand it! This is so detrimental to the healthy functioning of a body of believers and to the health of a marriage. When a pastor teaches that a husband should expect submission from his wife based upon his office as head, he is causing division. In marriage, the husband is called to submit to the wife, just as the wife is to submit to her husband. He is to love her. Love is sacrificial and submissive. The beauty of a loving marriage is mutual submission. The husband is built up by the respect, nurture, and empathy given by the wife. The wife is built up by the respect, nurture and empathy given by the husband. They are together in Christ.

                              When women are treated as second class citizens at a church, or are kept separate from the men folk, problems arise in the body. I have witnessed an unloving spirit at the 9Marks churches I have attended. They lacked empathy. I think it was a direct result of the authoritarian teaching requiring submission to an office, whether to pastor/elder or husband. They improperly enforce gender roles.



                              ETA: Aaaand a follow up article from the same site, personal (anecdotatal) testimony. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/02/...d-with-9marks/
                              I'll be glad to look at that, but any Church that restricts women from being pastors or deacons or elders could easily be seen as "treating women as second-class citizens".

                              But thanks for the info.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                                From what I've read, the leadership of the movement is starting to teeter left politically. That's the problem with these "movements"... they use the Bible as a framework and let fallible men fill in the spaces. If I were you (and I know I lack the pastoral years you have so take that with a grain of salt) I'd tell the dear sister that while 9Marks has some biblically based ideas which your church is already implementing, you will not be taking a stand on, or crediting, the movement itself as political issues have begun to surround the conversation
                                I think we're doing a lot of right things for the right reason, and the fact that it may sound like an outline of the 9Mark stuff, I still get my marching orders from much a MUCH Higher Office.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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