Where do people who commit suicide end up?

[Celebrian]

I didn't mean to imply that there can't be a spiritual component to depression, just that that can't be assumed. To me, saying depression is just a spiritual problem is like saying someone with cancer is sick because they didn't have a right relationship with God. Even the most mature Christian can get a deadly disease, so it seems strange to me to say that if you are doing well spiritually, you can't go crazy.

Anyway, it is a very sensitive subject that I will just agree to disagree on at this point

[JonathanL]

To me, saying depression is just a spiritual problem

I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but I don't think Adrift has ever stated anything of the sort.

[Celebrian]

I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but I don't think Adrift has ever stated anything of the sort.

I may be misunderstanding again, but it seemed to me that Adrift is saying that depression is primarily spiritual warfare (that it can be just a spiritual problem), while I am saying it is primarily biological (and doesn't have to be spiritual at all). I thought this was our main point of disagreement, but please correct me if I am wrong.

[Leonhard]

I believe a person who is not experiencing or exhibiting joy as a fruit of the spirit at all,

Would you mind defining joy here, as there's a popular emotional definition, and there's a classical definition which is at play. Many saints, and many holy people have had basically miserable lives and have experienced mostly suffering.

and who comes to the point where they believe that suicide is the only alternative

I think there's a difference between a person who is suffering in agony, who is motivated to end that agony and that ends up motivating them to kill themselves as the only means to end the pain, and those who want to take the matter of their death into their own hands. For the latter I'm thinking of some person I remember, who was in good health, but decided to commit suicide because they didn't want to experience growing old and not being able to travel as much as before.

"Those contemplating it or who have been unsuccessful at committing it do not deserve our condemnation, but whatever help and love and prayer we can offer. I don't doubt for a moment that the hurt is real, but as long as we continue to put our faithfulness in Christ, nothing is hopeless."

As this is your opinion, I'll give you my opinion in exchange.

First of all, this is a very heartfelt and good response to those people who are actually suffering such things. Its always good, proper and our first course of action to seek help from Christ.

Does He owe us any help, or any healing at all... nope. He's allowed people who've done nothing but pray to Him for healing, and had communities do the same, to grow continuously worse. In doing that He doesn't violate any promise He's given us. I don't think that means the prayers were in vain either, as they might have been meritorious toward that person, and maybe others, dying in His good graces.

But if you lay the blame on the person for not getting better, I think that's borderline cruel.

I have various sinful habits that I've asked Christ many times to heal, as well as not being the most pepper and bouncing person in the world. I'm voluntarily reclusive and introverted (this isn't sinful though). I tend to get depressions (and no, going to Christian social gatherings don't improve my mood). These are sufferings I bear. I've asked God to help them in just about any way you can imagine, and I try often to pull myself together and stop. Has he cured them? No. Has he allowed the situations to improve? On occasion, temporarily, yes, but He hasn't allowed these things to come to an end. Such is His will and I accept it, and keep trying and praying.

I'm not suffering the worst. There are people that suffer more. There's no arguing that they have no right to demand of God to suffer less. They can pray for it, but if He in response increases their suffering, there's no evil committed at all.

Our will is capable of always choosing good things, however there is a point where I think culpability for our actions is reduced, quite simple owing to the force that's impelling us to do something. So its not clear to me that people who commit suicide out of desperation in the face of enormous suffering are thereby seperating themselves from the love of God by an act of despair.

I understand that this is a very very emotional issue for people.

While some of us have faced depressions, and some of us have been close to suicide, that doesn't make us less rational in judging situations like this.

it's hard to talk about the logical elements without seeming cold and callous.

You're neither talking about logical or emotional aspects, so far you've mostly stated opinions. I'd take talking about something logical, would be if you referred to scripture, or aspects of natural theology. In this thread you've done neither, but you seem to imply that people are mostly speaking 'from emotion', while you're arguing from 'logic'. I don't think that's a good thing to imply, whether or not that is your intention.

About the only things I can find is one post where you discuss 1st Corinthians 10:13, and one where you discuss the chasm of Sheol.

As for 1st Corinthians 10:13, it actually does imply that there temptations that are impossible for us to overcome, however with the help of God we can overcome all temptations.

"There has no temptation taken you, but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."

One radical interpretation of this passage is that because we're Christians, we have no sinful habits of any kind at all. There no Christian habitual sinners. This interpretation I think is basically bunk. There are many Christians who suffer from various sinful habits, but also from many diseases that aren't sinful.

There's no sin in being depressed at all. Being not-happy, is not a sin. Joy is not the same as happiness, and has never been seen that. To rejoice and praise God, and be thankful to Him, it is not required that you're feeling like a sunbeam on a hot summer days in July.

You can be the most dour person in the world, having the most miserable day in your life, but if the first thing you do upon rising is thank God for the day to come, pray to Him and praise Him during the day, no matter how dry it feels and praise Him when go to bed. You'd probably he the most joyful person the world.

We're to 'rejoice' to 'be happy'. Even miserable sinners can do the former, only happy people can do the latter, and only while God permits them to feel happy.

[Adrift]

I may be misunderstanding again, but it seemed to me that Adrift is saying that depression is primarily spiritual warfare (that it can be just a spiritual problem), while I am saying it is primarily biological (and doesn't have to be spiritual at all). I thought this was our main point of disagreement, but please correct me if I am wrong.

All the way back in my first post I was careful to say that I believe there is a "spiritual component to [clinical] depression", especially a type of depression that leads to suicide. That doesn't mean that I think it's solely a spiritual issue. I see no problem in the idea that, like alcoholism, one may be biologically prone to depression. I believe that depression may also result from other natural means, like diet, or environment, as well. So, if people are suffering clinical depression, I don't believe they should avoid meds, as they do treat the symptoms, but I don't believe treating one with medication is the final step in delivering one from a depression that will end in suicide.

[Adrift]

Would you mind defining joy here, as there's a popular emotional definition, and there's a classical definition which is at play. Many saints, and many holy people have had basically miserable lives and have experienced mostly suffering.

I'm defining joy in the following manner:

Source: The Epistle to the Galatians by Ronald Y. K. Fung

"Joy" (chara) does not mean earthly, human happiness: Paul repeatedly exhorts Christians to rejoice "in the Lord" (Phil. 3:1; 4:4; cf. 2 Cor. 13:11, NASB). This joy is "joy in the faith" (Phil. 1:25, RV, etc.) given by the God of hope along with peace in the continuous process of believing (Rom. 15:13); its chief ground is the hope which derives from faith (Rom. 12:12, NEB "Let hope keep you joyful"). As an aspect of "the fruit of the Spirit," joy is also said to have its origin "in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17, RSV, NASB, NIV), that is to say, it is "inspired by the Holy Spirit" (NEB; cf. 1 Thess. 1:6, RSV, NIV; Lk. 10:21). Thus Paul traces the origin of joy indiscriminately to the Lord (i.e., Christ), God, and the Holy Spirit. Because its origin is not human but divine, Christian joy is unperturbed by sorrow and tribulation, and indeed gives proof of its power precisely in the midst of them (2 Cor. 6:10; 8:2; 1 Thess. 1:6; cf. Rom. 5:3). This joy is maintained when we make our "requests known to God in prayer and petition with thanksgiving" (Phil. 4:6, cf. v. 4;1 Thess. 5:16f.) and recognize that if we share in Christ's suffering now we shall "share his splendor hereafter" (Rom. 8:17).

© Copyright Original Source

I think there's a difference between a person who is suffering in agony, who is motivated to end that agony and that ends up motivating them to kill themselves as the only means to end the pain, and those who want to take the matter of their death into their own hands. For the latter I'm thinking of some person I remember, who was in good health, but decided to commit suicide because they didn't want to experience growing old and not being able to travel as much as before.

I imagine that the latter person might say that they were suffering in the same way as the prior.

While some of us have faced depressions, and some of us have been close to suicide, that doesn't make us less rational in judging situations like this.


You're neither talking about logical or emotional aspects, so far you've mostly stated opinions. I'd take talking about something logical, would be if you referred to scripture, or aspects of natural theology. In this thread you've done neither, but you seem to imply that people are mostly speaking 'from emotion', while you're arguing from 'logic'. I don't think that's a good thing to imply, whether or not that is your intention.

You've entirely missed my point. I wasn't painting myself as the paragon of logic who can think about this sort of thing clearly, while those who suffer from depression are doomed to emotionalism. My point was that this is a very touchy subject for anyone to talk about. Just in my own disagreement with people here and in whag's thread I've clearly hit upon the nerves of people who've experienced depression or who know someone who has. It's not an easy topic to talk about without it getting personal really quick. And, honestly, I can't say that I blame them.

Since you've decided to tell us your personal opinion about suicide, can you tell us what the Catholic Church's official stance on suicide is?

[Leonhard]

Since you've decided to tell us your personal opinion about suicide, can you tell us what the Catholic Church's official stance on suicide is?

My private opinion is the same as the official.

Source: Catechism of The Catholic Church

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

© Copyright Original Source

That a sin is grave is one of the requirements for it to be mortal. So suicide is a sin that has the danger of causing a persons eternal damnation, though its possible that persons culpability in a particular case is reduced.

[Celebrian]

All the way back in my first post I was careful to say that I believe there is a "spiritual component to [clinical] depression", especially a type of depression that leads to suicide. That doesn't mean that I think it's solely a spiritual issue. I see no problem in the idea that, like alcoholism, one may be biologically prone to depression. I believe that depression may also result from other natural means, like diet, or environment, as well. So, if people are suffering clinical depression, I don't believe they should avoid meds, as they do treat the symptoms, but I don't believe treating one with medication is the final step in delivering one from a depression that will end in suicide.

OK, sorry if I misunderstood.

Anyway, I had better bow out of this discussion -- I get too emotionally involved.

[KingsGambit]

The conundrum is how a just and just God can forgive unrepentant sin. If God in His love bends the rules He's established to let someone in, He is no longer just.

I find this formulation problematic. Scripture makes clear that all sin is worthy of death so repentant or not, any forgiveness could be construed as "unjust" on God's part per the logic since Jesus's sacrifice was not part of the original "rules". God has the right to modify the rules as he sees fit in my view.

[One Bad Pig]

I find this formulation problematic. Scripture makes clear that all sin is worthy of death so repentant or not, any forgiveness could be construed as "unjust" on God's part per the logic since Jesus's sacrifice was not part of the original "rules". God has the right to modify the rules as he sees fit in my view.

Yes, all sin is worthy of death. However, God has made provision for forgiveness. (Rom. 4:5-8, 1 Jn. 1:9) Yes, God has the right to modify the rules as He sees fit, but Scripture cannot be broken.

[Cow Poke]

I think there's something inherent in suicide that basically says that God is powerless to save us, and that if he could, we wouldn't find ourselves in the state we currently are.

In Bill's example of 'jumping on a grenade' to save your buddies, I can't help but think of "greater love has no man than this - that a man lay down his life for his friends".

[rogue06]

There are a few different types of suicide. Of them, the three that are most clear to me are:

1) Heroic suicide - jumping on a grenade to save your platoon
2) Mental illness - Depression, chemical imbalances
3) Selfishness - Killing yourself to avoid prison, etc.


I believe God can judge which is which and decree fairly as to the end result of where that person goes.

Personally I don't see "heroic suicide" as being suicide per se but rather sacrificing yourself to save others. I might be splitting hairs here but then as I said it's my opinion.

[rogue06]

Might be a tangent, but what if it was an accident and not a suicide? How do they tell the difference?

We are not the judge here. The one who is does know.

[Cow Poke]

Personally I don't see "heroic suicide" as being suicide per se but rather sacrificing yourself to save others. I might be splitting hairs here but then as I said it's my opinion.

I agree - I don't think that the person, in that split second, considers the fact that they may well be ending their own life. That is obviously not the primary objective of the exercise.

[KingsGambit]

Personally I don't see "heroic suicide" as being suicide per se but rather sacrificing yourself to save others. I might be splitting hairs here but then as I said it's my opinion.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.