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Charismatic movements.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    How do we square the type of thinking that says: "I prayed to God, and didn't get it, God musta not wanted me to have it", with a passage like Luke 18:1-8 (the parable of the widow and the judge)? I ask this as someone who questions my own use of tongues in the past, and who has mixed feelings on the type of tongues and prophecy I see in many charismatic churches.
    These gifts were not something that I especially sought. They were something I thought might be of value. I did not continue to seek, I simply waited on God.

    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Is it possible that you could have received this gift, but gave up your request before God granted it? Is it possible that you lacked faith in the things you asked, or that you asked for it with the wrong heart?

    I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm asking these questions, because I sincerely don't know, and am wondering about the possibility.
    Again this was not something I craved. I asked if these were something I should have. I chose to simply trust God on the matter, not continue to seek something that may or may not have been His will for me. These gifts must be from God, not from an emotional high.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      These gifts were not something that I especially sought. They were something I thought might be of value. I did not continue to seek, I simply waited on God.


      Again this was not something I craved. I asked if these were something I should have. I chose to simply trust God on the matter, not continue to seek something that may or may not have been His will for me. These gifts must be from God, not from an emotional high.
      Fair enough. What do you think Elisha's motivation was in asking Elijah for a double portion of his spirit? Was it part of some sort of emotional high for him, do you think?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        I'm pretty certain that the Holy Spirit would never mock the Gospel of the Cross by making someone laugh hysterically at it when it is preached. I can understanding joyful laughing because of the salvation we have in Christ, but the sort of extreme, uncontrollable and hysterical laughter that's found in these movements are clearly not from God.
        The very charismatic Church I was in during the Toronto Blessing period, there was the Holy Laughter thing happening, but it was during ministry time, not during the preaching of the word.

        One particular incident stands out to me during this time and that was a friend of mine who was in deep worship, and began laughing with a deep joyful laugh (rather than a maniacal disruptive thing) as God broke a stronghold in his life that he had been struggling with.
        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
        1 Corinthians 16:13

        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
        -Ben Witherington III

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          The Toronto Blessing is clearly an example of 1 or 2, 3 isn't even an alternative for me . The manifestations in the Toronto Blessing such as "holy () laughter", being "drunk in the spirit" and convulsing on the floor has far more in common with the phenomena known in New Age circles as the "kundalini rising" than anything found in the Bible. There's a big difference between the unorderliness admonished by Paul and the unorderliness resulting from movements such as the Toronto Blessing. In the case of the early church it was the persons themselves that were the cause of the situation going out of hand (for example they chose to speak in tongues when it was not appropriate), or else it would have been pointless of Paul to admonish them in the first place. In the case of these clearly heretical movements however, the unorderliness is an integral part of the manifestations themselves, and since God is not a God of disorder these manifestations are clearly not from God. In the case of the early Church orderliness was actually attainable, or Paul wouldn't have admonished the Corinthians to behave in a more orderly fashion when manifesting the gifts of the Spirit. In the case of movements such as the Toronto Blessing however, achieving anything resembling orderliness isn't possible even in principle.
          I was listening to a sermon just now and in it the preacher specifically said at the "Toronto Renewal" as he called that he saw one man manifesting signs from God while the man next to him was manifesting signs from the devil. This is from a guy who founded a school of prophetic ministry, so I guess even the overseers had issues with some of what happened there but refused to control it because they didn't want to limit the authentic moves by God while they clamped down on the false signs.

          I did not go looking for the sermon either, I had downloaded it while I was unaware of this thread, and I had no idea that the preacher was gonna speak bluntly on this topic which by the way, he certainly did.
          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Raphael View Post
            The very charismatic Church I was in during the Toronto Blessing period, there was the Holy Laughter thing happening, but it was during ministry time, not during the preaching of the word.

            One particular incident stands out to me during this time and that was a friend of mine who was in deep worship, and began laughing with a deep joyful laugh (rather than a maniacal disruptive thing) as God broke a stronghold in his life that he had been struggling with.
            That reminds me of a time (circa 1962) when I happened ― as a result of a remarkable series of events (too long a story to tell in this post) ― to visit an Assembly of God church in downtown Washington DC where a Baptist preacher (Frank Downing) from Baltimore was speaking for the final two days of a week long revival meeting led by Assembly of God evangelist Hattie Hammond. During the worship part of the service before Frank Downing spoke, Hattie spoke from the pulpit and was trying to complete a sentence but had difficulty doing so because she kept breaking into spells of joyful laughter. What she was trying to say was this: "Jesus is the Great Physician, with one hand he takes his surgeon's knife and removes what has to go, and with the other he applies his healing oil."

            It just so happened that when I entered that church that night I was so deeply depressed that I could not imagine that anyone could say or do anything to help me. I had forced myself to go to the meeting, remembering John Wesley's testimony of having gone "quite unwillingly" to the meeting wherein he "felt" his "heart strangely warmed" ― which was the great turning point in his remarkable life.

            What Hattie was trying to express in the words quoted above was happening within me, but it was taking some time. By the time she finished that sentence, I had been transformed from a deep dark depression to the fresh-heartedness of a new born babe in Christ.

            Hattie's public spells of laughter were manifestations of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit of Christ who was simultaneously setting me free from a clinical state of depression. It was as though her laughter and my healing was a single operation.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Fair enough. What do you think Elisha's motivation was in asking Elijah for a double portion of his spirit? Was it part of some sort of emotional high for him, do you think?
              Elisha was already called to be a prophet. He was simply asking to be a good one.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                Elisha was already called to be a prophet. He was simply asking to be a good one.
                Okay.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                  That reminds me of a time (circa 1962) when I happened ― as a result of a remarkable series of events (too long a story to tell in this post) ― to visit an Assembly of God church in downtown Washington DC where a Baptist preacher (Frank Downing) from Baltimore was speaking for the final two days of a week long revival meeting led by Assembly of God evangelist Hattie Hammond. During the worship part of the service before Frank Downing spoke, Hattie spoke from the pulpit and was trying to complete a sentence but had difficulty doing so because she kept breaking into spells of joyful laughter. What she was trying to say was this: "Jesus is the Great Physician, with one hand he takes his surgeon's knife and removes what has to go, and with the other he applies his healing oil."

                  It just so happened that when I entered that church that night I was so deeply depressed that I could not imagine that anyone could say or do anything to help me. I had forced myself to go to the meeting, remembering John Wesley's testimony of having gone "quite unwillingly" to the meeting wherein he "felt" his "heart strangely warmed" ― which was the great turning point in his remarkable life.

                  What Hattie was trying to express in the words quoted above was happening within me, but it was taking some time. By the time she finished that sentence, I had been transformed from a deep dark depression to the fresh-heartedness of a new born babe in Christ.

                  Hattie's public spells of laughter were manifestations of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit of Christ who was simultaneously setting me free from a clinical state of depression. It was as though her laughter and my healing were a single operation.
                  P.S.: I just remembered more fully the statement made by Hattie Hammond that I quoted above:
                  Jesus is the Great Physician, and whatever you need may be, he's a specialist in that field. With one hand he takes his surgeon's knife and removes what has to go, and with the other he applies his healing oil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Sidenote:

                    (Disclaimer: my Methodism is about to show. )

                    Where there is no question of heresy or inauthenticity, I think the problem is our 'one size fits all' view of worship. Within the confines provided by Scripture I don't see anything that indicates that genuine worship won't be accepted because it's 'too cerebral' or because it's 'too touchy feelly' or because everyone was standing on their left foot. for some, emotion is how they connect and make sense of the world. Expecting them to find what they need in sedate, rational worship is silly; it's equally silly to expect those who find emotion a hendrence rather than a help to worship effectively in the middle of a crowd that won't stop hollering 'hallelujah'.

                    Conversely, I suspect any church that practices one to the exclusion of the other fails all its congregants: we NEED to be challenged where we are weak, to some extent. The Holy Rollers need to sit down and crack open that bible rather than literally standing on it. The theologian wannabes need to feel something in worship occasionally.

                    It's not all or nothing - it's both/and. The important part is to stay within the bounds of Scripture and to love God, however you express that love.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      - it's both/and.
                      That's redundant.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        That's redundant.
                        So is either/or.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          So is either/or.
                          Hmmmmmmmm....
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Other than "either this or that" and "both this and that" the constructions are both redundant. 'Either' indicates a choice just as 'or' does.

                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              Fair enough. What do you think Elisha's motivation was in asking Elijah for a double portion of his spirit?
                              It seems a pretty clear allusion to the inheritance law where the firstborn gets a double portion. We take away that when you're anointed and apprenticed to be successor to a great prophet, it is permissible to ask for a part of the gifting he had at the point of "death".

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I wonder sometimes if perhaps some of the things I had seen were both emotional coaching demonic imitation and mixed with the actual signs of manifestation of the Holy Spirit. The very last time I potentially felt God's presence I was sitting in mass and a very light breeze swept over the Church. A Cardinal had curiously come to rest on a window and it was noticeable to everyone. The breeze continued and it was strangely calming. The priest mentioned something about it. I have not noticed it since.
                                Its very difficult to discern the Holy Spirit when those around you do not. But that day? Perhaps not so much.
                                A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                                George Bernard Shaw

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