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  • #16
    Also, I question your statement about the gift not coming from the desire of the prophet. Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of his spirit, and Paul told the Corinthian church that he desired that they all spoke in tongues. What can we take away from those passages?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Also, I question your statement about the gift not coming from the desire of the prophet. Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of his spirit, and Paul told the Corinthian church that he desired that they all spoke in tongues. What can we take away from those passages?
      I thought he meant that as a jab at the "impartation" crowd. I could be wrong of course.
      Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

      Comment


      • #18
        I've shared before that I had my own "speaking in tongues" episode back in the early late 60's / early 70's with one of the "Jesus Freak" communities.

        I really did speak in tongues as the others laid hands on me and prayed for me to "receive the gift", but when I got home, didn't feel right about it. It didn't bring peace, it brought confusion.

        I prayed one of my "blockhead prayers" -- "God, you know what a blockhead I can be - if this is real, please let me know, but if it's something I'm not supposed to be involved in, please let me know that, as well".

        The next week (we met on Tuesday nights) one of the guys who "received the gift" the same night I did the previous Tuesday "got saved". Everybody was rejoicing, and I was wondering ...

        WAIT --- he "got the gift of the Spirit LAST week, and this week he gets SAVED?????" Even a dumb teenager like me knew something wasn't quite right, and the fact that nobody else seemed troubled over that seemed to me to be the answer to my blockhead prayer.

        I've also been in meetings where the "Roaring Lion" "gift" was in operation, and I thought --- acting like an animal is something people do when they're not in their right mind.....
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
          I thought he meant that as a jab at the "impartation" crowd. I could be wrong of course.
          Impartation crowd? I don't think I'm familiar with them.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I've shared before that I had my own "speaking in tongues" episode back in the early late 60's / early 70's with one of the "Jesus Freak" communities.

            I really did speak in tongues as the others laid hands on me and prayed for me to "receive the gift", but when I got home, didn't feel right about it. It didn't bring peace, it brought confusion.

            I prayed one of my "blockhead prayers" -- "God, you know what a blockhead I can be - if this is real, please let me know, but if it's something I'm not supposed to be involved in, please let me know that, as well".

            The next week (we met on Tuesday nights) one of the guys who "received the gift" the same night I did the previous Tuesday "got saved". Everybody was rejoicing, and I was wondering ...

            WAIT --- he "got the gift of the Spirit LAST week, and this week he gets SAVED?????" Even a dumb teenager like me knew something wasn't quite right, and the fact that nobody else seemed troubled over that seemed to me to be the answer to my blockhead prayer.
            Yeah, that is weird. In every instance of someone speaking in tongues I've ever heard of, it followed a confession in Christ. How did he even know what speaking in tongues was if they didn't speak about salvation? Is it possible that he had been saved, but thought he could or should ask for salvation again?

            I've also been in meetings where the "Roaring Lion" "gift" was in operation, and I thought --- acting like an animal is something people do when they're not in their right mind.....
            Wow, I've never heard of that, but then again, a lot of cults did form out of the Jesus Freak movement (and so did a lot of great orthodox churches), so it doesn't surprise me too much.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Yeah, that is weird. In every instance of someone speaking in tongues I've ever heard of, it followed a confession in Christ. How did he even know what speaking in tongues was if they didn't speak about salvation? Is it possible that he had been saved, but thought he could or should ask for salvation again?
              I think, in this particular case, the "speaking in tongues" was not legitimate. It was encouraged and coached, and followed a period of very emotional "praise and worship". As to the "salvation" - don't know if that was because it's what the group expected or....

              I think these people were sincere, but confused.

              Wow, I've never heard of that, but then again, a lot of cults did form out of the Jesus Freak movement (and so did a lot of great orthodox churches), so it doesn't surprise me too much.
              This was much more recent - about 7 years ago - the "Lion of Judah" or "roaring lion" manifestation that came out of the "Toronto Blessing" or the "Brownsville Experience" - along with "Holy Laughter", which I also observed. This was in an Assembly of God Church whose Pastor, in my opinion, kinda went off the deep end and was following a South African Evangelist.
              Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-04-2015, 07:10 PM.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                Impartation crowd? I don't think I'm familiar with them.
                I don't know if they have a name, that's just what I call those charismatics who believe what I list below.

                They're associated closer to Bethel I think, they believe that they can give their spiritual gifts to a recipient directly through laying of hands as far as I can tell. This is similar to the idea of Apostolic succession, but in my understanding would demote God's place as the actual giver of gifts.

                It seems like bad theology but I am an outsider looking in and I assume I'm mischaracterizing their belief somehow.

                My experience with them is twofold:

                1. My (A/G) church hosted some non-denominational charismatics from a state away who were acting as missionaries and on the night they were leaving I was saying my good byes and I was stopped by one of them who said he wanted to pray over me to which I consented, I had noticed that others treated him with honor and held his prophetic gifting in high regard previous to this, and during his prayer over me he said he "imparted" all his prophetic gifts to me, and asked God to make them even greater for me. It is the only time I've fallen to the ground because I was being prayed for and I resisted it strongly but I felt a weight settle over me the crushed me into the ground, I had no feelings of euphoria, only peace.

                2. Listening to Bethel sermons online and hearing Bill Johnson talk about giving his congregation an impartation being something God told him to do and then he prayed.

                ---
                Again, I might be drawing lines where there aren't none but it was a different way to describe giftings than I'm used to.
                Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  This was much more recent - about 7 years ago - the "Lion of Judah" or "roaring lion" manifestation that came out of the "Toronto Blessing" or the "Brownsville Experience" - along with "Holy Laughter", which I also observed. This was in an Assembly of God Church whose Pastor, in my opinion, kinda went off the deep end and was following a South African Evangelist.
                  I never heard of the roaring lion, I have heard claims of dog barking coming out of those events, not that both phenomena aren't very weird sounding.

                  Holy Laughter isn't something I've witnessed in others, but I have felt euphoria during intense periods of worship where I started grinning and laughing for a few moments before I can regain control of myself (1 Corinthians 14 for orderly worship comes to mind) is it similar but in great numbers and undisciplined?
                  Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                    I never heard of the roaring lion, I have heard claims of dog barking coming out of those events, not that both phenomena aren't very weird sounding.

                    Holy Laughter isn't something I've witnessed in others, but I have felt euphoria during intense periods of worship where I started grinning and laughing for a few moments before I can regain control of myself (1 Corinthians 14 for orderly worship comes to mind) is it similar but in great numbers and undisciplined?
                    Some of the members of my Church were going to Revival services at a local Assembly of God, and they were telling me about this Holy Laughter. I decided to attend to see for myself.

                    Long story short, this evangelist would point to somebody, and they would erupt into uncontrollable laughter, cackling and convulsing.

                    The first two nights, he did a lot of this, and never got to preaching the Bible.

                    On the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....

                    This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.

                    Even the preacher looked stunned --- how could the Holy Spirit of the Living God cause -- or even allow -- God's people to laugh so hysterically as the Gospel of Christ was being preached in such a manner? And, yeah, I had asked God, "God, you know what a blockhead I can be -- if this is real, please make it so obvious....."
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Some of the members of my Church were going to Revival services at a local Assembly of God, and they were telling me about this Holy Laughter. I decided to attend to see for myself.

                      Long story short, this evangelist would point to somebody, and they would erupt into uncontrollable laughter, cackling and convulsing.

                      The first two nights, he did a lot of this, and never got to preaching the Bible.

                      On the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....

                      This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.

                      Even the preacher looked stunned --- how could the Holy Spirit of the Living God cause -- or even allow -- God's people to laugh so hysterically as the Gospel of Christ was being preached in such a manner? And, yeah, I had asked God, "God, you know what a blockhead I can be -- if this is real, please make it so obvious....."
                      Gosh that's weird. I'm not comfortable with the first instance at all, it sounds so contrived. The second one's spontaneity makes it seem better to me but I don't think I'm comfortable with that either, even if it was from God they should have disciplined themselves to not be an interruption.

                      Thanks for explaining CP.
                      Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                        Gosh that's weird. I'm not comfortable with the first instance at all, it sounds so contrived. The second one's spontaneity makes it seem better to me but I don't think I'm comfortable with that either, even if it was from God they should have disciplined themselves to not be an interruption.

                        Thanks for explaining CP.
                        Somewhere I posted the longer version of this, but I was preaching in a black Church once where somebody got up in the middle of my sermon and started dancing and shouting, and being young, it caught me off guard, and I didn't know what to do. The black Pastor, who was sitting on a bench beside the pulpit, stood, pointed to a couple of his deacons, and they guided this lady out the back door, still dancing and shouting.

                        He then looked at me and said something very profound .... "The Holy Spirit don't NEVER interrupt Himself".
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Some of the members of my Church were going to Revival services at a local Assembly of God, and they were telling me about this Holy Laughter. I decided to attend to see for myself.

                          Long story short, this evangelist would point to somebody, and they would erupt into uncontrollable laughter, cackling and convulsing.

                          The first two nights, he did a lot of this, and never got to preaching the Bible.

                          On the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....

                          This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.

                          Even the preacher looked stunned --- how could the Holy Spirit of the Living God cause -- or even allow -- God's people to laugh so hysterically as the Gospel of Christ was being preached in such a manner? And, yeah, I had asked God, "God, you know what a blockhead I can be -- if this is real, please make it so obvious....."
                          Just thinking out loud here, but a few possibilities occur to me. 1.) The "spiritual gift" of laughing in tongues that you witnessed is spiritual, but it's demonic. An imitation of a real gift of the spirit used to mislead and confuse. 2.) Some sort of non-spiritual, psychological phenomena. A sort of mass hysteria of some sort. 3.) A true, Holy Spirit derived manifestation, that has gotten out of control because of poor pastoring/leadership 4.) A legit expression of the manifestation of the spirit that just seems odd to the outsider.

                          Out of all of these, I'm going with either 1 or 3. The reason I think 3 is possible is because Paul himself had to direct the church in orderliness when it came to charismatic expression, which tells me that the early churches were practicing these things, and getting out of hand sometimes. Paul never condemns the manifestations themselves, never calls it evil, or demonic (in fact, commands the church not to forbid speaking in tongues), but instructs them to do so in a decently and orderly fashion. I'm also reminded of the early charismatic group, the Montanists, who, most scholars seem to agree, were orthodox for the most part, and identified as such for some time, but when they eventually got out of hand, the church proper declared them heretical.

                          1 is a tempting option because Satan is the author of confusion, and it seems contrary to all that is holy for holiness itself to turn into chaos or confusion. Also, let's be honest, it's plain creepy. I've been in services before where I could feel the air thick with something, and I couldn't really tell whether it was from God or not, and once I started seeing the manifestation my spidey-sense kicked in, and said, "no, this is off". I attribute that spidey-sense to the Holy Spirit.

                          I don't know. Could go either way for me.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            Just thinking out loud here, but a few possibilities occur to me. 1.) The "spiritual gift" of laughing in tongues that you witnessed is spiritual, but it's demonic. An imitation of a real gift of the spirit used to mislead and confuse. 2.) Some sort of non-spiritual, psychological phenomena. A sort of mass hysteria of some sort. 3.) A true, Holy Spirit derived manifestation, that has gotten out of control because of poor pastoring/leadership 4.) A legit expression of the manifestation of the spirit that just seems odd to the outsider.

                            Out of all of these, I'm going with either 1 or 3. The reason I think 3 is possible is because Paul himself had to direct the church in orderliness when it came to charismatic expression, which tells me that the early churches were practicing these things, and getting out of hand sometimes. Paul never condemns the manifestations themselves, never calls it evil, or demonic (in fact, commands the church not to forbid speaking in tongues), but instructs them to do so in a decently and orderly fashion. I'm also reminded of the early charismatic group, the Montanists, who, most scholars seem to agree, were orthodox for the most part, and identified as such for some time, but when they eventually got out of hand, the church proper declared them heretical.

                            1 is a tempting option because Satan is the author of confusion, and it seems contrary to all that is holy for holiness itself to turn into chaos or confusion. Also, let's be honest, it's plain creepy. I've been in services before where I could feel the air thick with something, and I couldn't really tell whether it was from God or not, and once I started seeing the manifestation my spidey-sense kicked in, and said, "no, this is off". I attribute that spidey-sense to the Holy Spirit.

                            I don't know. Could go either way for me.
                            I felt the exact same sensation - the atmosphere was strangely "heavy" - when attending a charismatic church, once upon a time.

                            PS: It looks like we both have our spidey-sense intact, praise God!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              This was much more recent - about 7 years ago - the "Lion of Judah" or "roaring lion" manifestation that came out of the "Toronto Blessing" or the "Brownsville Experience" - along with "Holy Laughter", which I also observed. This was in an Assembly of God Church whose Pastor, in my opinion, kinda went off the deep end and was following a South African Evangelist.
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              Just thinking out loud here, but a few possibilities occur to me. 1.) The "spiritual gift" of laughing in tongues that you witnessed is spiritual, but it's demonic. An imitation of a real gift of the spirit used to mislead and confuse. 2.) Some sort of non-spiritual, psychological phenomena. A sort of mass hysteria of some sort. 3.) A true, Holy Spirit derived manifestation, that has gotten out of control because of poor pastoring/leadership 4.) A legit expression of the manifestation of the spirit that just seems odd to the outsider.

                              Out of all of these, I'm going with either 1 or 3. The reason I think 3 is possible is because Paul himself had to direct the church in orderliness when it came to charismatic expression, which tells me that the early churches were practicing these things, and getting out of hand sometimes. Paul never condemns the manifestations themselves, never calls it evil, or demonic (in fact, commands the church not to forbid speaking in tongues), but instructs them to do so in a decently and orderly fashion. I'm also reminded of the early charismatic group, the Montanists, who, most scholars seem to agree, were orthodox for the most part, and identified as such for some time, but when they eventually got out of hand, the church proper declared them heretical.

                              1 is a tempting option because Satan is the author of confusion, and it seems contrary to all that is holy for holiness itself to turn into chaos or confusion. Also, let's be honest, it's plain creepy. I've been in services before where I could feel the air thick with something, and I couldn't really tell whether it was from God or not, and once I started seeing the manifestation my spidey-sense kicked in, and said, "no, this is off". I attribute that spidey-sense to the Holy Spirit.

                              I don't know. Could go either way for me.

                              The Toronto Blessing is clearly an example of 1 or 2, 3 isn't even an alternative for me . The manifestations in the Toronto Blessing such as "holy () laughter", being "drunk in the spirit" and convulsing on the floor has far more in common with the phenomena known in New Age circles as the "kundalini rising" than anything found in the Bible. There's a big difference between the unorderliness admonished by Paul and the unorderliness resulting from movements such as the Toronto Blessing. In the case of the early church it was the persons themselves that were the cause of the situation going out of hand (for example they chose to speak in tongues when it was not appropriate), or else it would have been pointless of Paul to admonish them in the first place. In the case of these clearly heretical movements however, the unorderliness is an integral part of the manifestations themselves, and since God is not a God of disorder these manifestations are clearly not from God. In the case of the early Church orderliness was actually attainable, or Paul wouldn't have admonished the Corinthians to behave in a more orderly fashion when manifesting the gifts of the Spirit. In the case of movements such as the Toronto Blessing however, achieving anything resembling orderliness isn't possible even in principle.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                On the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....

                                This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.
                                I'm pretty certain that the Holy Spirit would never mock the Gospel of the Cross by making someone laugh hysterically at it when it is preached. I can understanding joyful laughing because of the salvation we have in Christ, but the sort of extreme, uncontrollable and hysterical laughter that's found in these movements are clearly not from God.

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