Also, I question your statement about the gift not coming from the desire of the prophet. Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of his spirit, and Paul told the Corinthian church that he desired that they all spoke in tongues. What can we take away from those passages?
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostAlso, I question your statement about the gift not coming from the desire of the prophet. Elisha asked Elijah for a double portion of his spirit, and Paul told the Corinthian church that he desired that they all spoke in tongues. What can we take away from those passages?Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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I've shared before that I had my own "speaking in tongues" episode back in the early late 60's / early 70's with one of the "Jesus Freak" communities.
I really did speak in tongues as the others laid hands on me and prayed for me to "receive the gift", but when I got home, didn't feel right about it. It didn't bring peace, it brought confusion.
I prayed one of my "blockhead prayers" -- "God, you know what a blockhead I can be - if this is real, please let me know, but if it's something I'm not supposed to be involved in, please let me know that, as well".
The next week (we met on Tuesday nights) one of the guys who "received the gift" the same night I did the previous Tuesday "got saved". Everybody was rejoicing, and I was wondering ...
WAIT --- he "got the gift of the Spirit LAST week, and this week he gets SAVED?????" Even a dumb teenager like me knew something wasn't quite right, and the fact that nobody else seemed troubled over that seemed to me to be the answer to my blockhead prayer.
I've also been in meetings where the "Roaring Lion" "gift" was in operation, and I thought --- acting like an animal is something people do when they're not in their right mind.....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI've shared before that I had my own "speaking in tongues" episode back in the early late 60's / early 70's with one of the "Jesus Freak" communities.
I really did speak in tongues as the others laid hands on me and prayed for me to "receive the gift", but when I got home, didn't feel right about it. It didn't bring peace, it brought confusion.
I prayed one of my "blockhead prayers" -- "God, you know what a blockhead I can be - if this is real, please let me know, but if it's something I'm not supposed to be involved in, please let me know that, as well".
The next week (we met on Tuesday nights) one of the guys who "received the gift" the same night I did the previous Tuesday "got saved". Everybody was rejoicing, and I was wondering ...
WAIT --- he "got the gift of the Spirit LAST week, and this week he gets SAVED?????" Even a dumb teenager like me knew something wasn't quite right, and the fact that nobody else seemed troubled over that seemed to me to be the answer to my blockhead prayer.
I've also been in meetings where the "Roaring Lion" "gift" was in operation, and I thought --- acting like an animal is something people do when they're not in their right mind.....
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYeah, that is weird. In every instance of someone speaking in tongues I've ever heard of, it followed a confession in Christ. How did he even know what speaking in tongues was if they didn't speak about salvation? Is it possible that he had been saved, but thought he could or should ask for salvation again?
I think these people were sincere, but confused.
Wow, I've never heard of that, but then again, a lot of cults did form out of the Jesus Freak movement (and so did a lot of great orthodox churches), so it doesn't surprise me too much.Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-04-2015, 07:10 PM.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostImpartation crowd? I don't think I'm familiar with them.
They're associated closer to Bethel I think, they believe that they can give their spiritual gifts to a recipient directly through laying of hands as far as I can tell. This is similar to the idea of Apostolic succession, but in my understanding would demote God's place as the actual giver of gifts.
It seems like bad theology but I am an outsider looking in and I assume I'm mischaracterizing their belief somehow.
My experience with them is twofold:
1. My (A/G) church hosted some non-denominational charismatics from a state away who were acting as missionaries and on the night they were leaving I was saying my good byes and I was stopped by one of them who said he wanted to pray over me to which I consented, I had noticed that others treated him with honor and held his prophetic gifting in high regard previous to this, and during his prayer over me he said he "imparted" all his prophetic gifts to me, and asked God to make them even greater for me. It is the only time I've fallen to the ground because I was being prayed for and I resisted it strongly but I felt a weight settle over me the crushed me into the ground, I had no feelings of euphoria, only peace.
2. Listening to Bethel sermons online and hearing Bill Johnson talk about giving his congregation an impartation being something God told him to do and then he prayed.
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Again, I might be drawing lines where there aren't none but it was a different way to describe giftings than I'm used to.Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis was much more recent - about 7 years ago - the "Lion of Judah" or "roaring lion" manifestation that came out of the "Toronto Blessing" or the "Brownsville Experience" - along with "Holy Laughter", which I also observed. This was in an Assembly of God Church whose Pastor, in my opinion, kinda went off the deep end and was following a South African Evangelist.
Holy Laughter isn't something I've witnessed in others, but I have felt euphoria during intense periods of worship where I started grinning and laughing for a few moments before I can regain control of myself (1 Corinthians 14 for orderly worship comes to mind) is it similar but in great numbers and undisciplined?Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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Originally posted by Pentecost View PostI never heard of the roaring lion, I have heard claims of dog barking coming out of those events, not that both phenomena aren't very weird sounding.
Holy Laughter isn't something I've witnessed in others, but I have felt euphoria during intense periods of worship where I started grinning and laughing for a few moments before I can regain control of myself (1 Corinthians 14 for orderly worship comes to mind) is it similar but in great numbers and undisciplined?
Long story short, this evangelist would point to somebody, and they would erupt into uncontrollable laughter, cackling and convulsing.
The first two nights, he did a lot of this, and never got to preaching the Bible.
On the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....
This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.
Even the preacher looked stunned --- how could the Holy Spirit of the Living God cause -- or even allow -- God's people to laugh so hysterically as the Gospel of Christ was being preached in such a manner? And, yeah, I had asked God, "God, you know what a blockhead I can be -- if this is real, please make it so obvious....."The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSome of the members of my Church were going to Revival services at a local Assembly of God, and they were telling me about this Holy Laughter. I decided to attend to see for myself.
Long story short, this evangelist would point to somebody, and they would erupt into uncontrollable laughter, cackling and convulsing.
The first two nights, he did a lot of this, and never got to preaching the Bible.
On the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....
This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.
Even the preacher looked stunned --- how could the Holy Spirit of the Living God cause -- or even allow -- God's people to laugh so hysterically as the Gospel of Christ was being preached in such a manner? And, yeah, I had asked God, "God, you know what a blockhead I can be -- if this is real, please make it so obvious....."
Thanks for explaining CP.Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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Originally posted by Pentecost View PostGosh that's weird. I'm not comfortable with the first instance at all, it sounds so contrived. The second one's spontaneity makes it seem better to me but I don't think I'm comfortable with that either, even if it was from God they should have disciplined themselves to not be an interruption.
Thanks for explaining CP.
He then looked at me and said something very profound .... "The Holy Spirit don't NEVER interrupt Himself".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSome of the members of my Church were going to Revival services at a local Assembly of God, and they were telling me about this Holy Laughter. I decided to attend to see for myself.
Long story short, this evangelist would point to somebody, and they would erupt into uncontrollable laughter, cackling and convulsing.
The first two nights, he did a lot of this, and never got to preaching the Bible.
On the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....
This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.
Even the preacher looked stunned --- how could the Holy Spirit of the Living God cause -- or even allow -- God's people to laugh so hysterically as the Gospel of Christ was being preached in such a manner? And, yeah, I had asked God, "God, you know what a blockhead I can be -- if this is real, please make it so obvious....."
Out of all of these, I'm going with either 1 or 3. The reason I think 3 is possible is because Paul himself had to direct the church in orderliness when it came to charismatic expression, which tells me that the early churches were practicing these things, and getting out of hand sometimes. Paul never condemns the manifestations themselves, never calls it evil, or demonic (in fact, commands the church not to forbid speaking in tongues), but instructs them to do so in a decently and orderly fashion. I'm also reminded of the early charismatic group, the Montanists, who, most scholars seem to agree, were orthodox for the most part, and identified as such for some time, but when they eventually got out of hand, the church proper declared them heretical.
1 is a tempting option because Satan is the author of confusion, and it seems contrary to all that is holy for holiness itself to turn into chaos or confusion. Also, let's be honest, it's plain creepy. I've been in services before where I could feel the air thick with something, and I couldn't really tell whether it was from God or not, and once I started seeing the manifestation my spidey-sense kicked in, and said, "no, this is off". I attribute that spidey-sense to the Holy Spirit.
I don't know. Could go either way for me.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostJust thinking out loud here, but a few possibilities occur to me. 1.) The "spiritual gift" of laughing in tongues that you witnessed is spiritual, but it's demonic. An imitation of a real gift of the spirit used to mislead and confuse. 2.) Some sort of non-spiritual, psychological phenomena. A sort of mass hysteria of some sort. 3.) A true, Holy Spirit derived manifestation, that has gotten out of control because of poor pastoring/leadership 4.) A legit expression of the manifestation of the spirit that just seems odd to the outsider.
Out of all of these, I'm going with either 1 or 3. The reason I think 3 is possible is because Paul himself had to direct the church in orderliness when it came to charismatic expression, which tells me that the early churches were practicing these things, and getting out of hand sometimes. Paul never condemns the manifestations themselves, never calls it evil, or demonic (in fact, commands the church not to forbid speaking in tongues), but instructs them to do so in a decently and orderly fashion. I'm also reminded of the early charismatic group, the Montanists, who, most scholars seem to agree, were orthodox for the most part, and identified as such for some time, but when they eventually got out of hand, the church proper declared them heretical.
1 is a tempting option because Satan is the author of confusion, and it seems contrary to all that is holy for holiness itself to turn into chaos or confusion. Also, let's be honest, it's plain creepy. I've been in services before where I could feel the air thick with something, and I couldn't really tell whether it was from God or not, and once I started seeing the manifestation my spidey-sense kicked in, and said, "no, this is off". I attribute that spidey-sense to the Holy Spirit.
I don't know. Could go either way for me.
PS: It looks like we both have our spidey-sense intact, praise God!
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis was much more recent - about 7 years ago - the "Lion of Judah" or "roaring lion" manifestation that came out of the "Toronto Blessing" or the "Brownsville Experience" - along with "Holy Laughter", which I also observed. This was in an Assembly of God Church whose Pastor, in my opinion, kinda went off the deep end and was following a South African Evangelist.Originally posted by Adrift View PostJust thinking out loud here, but a few possibilities occur to me. 1.) The "spiritual gift" of laughing in tongues that you witnessed is spiritual, but it's demonic. An imitation of a real gift of the spirit used to mislead and confuse. 2.) Some sort of non-spiritual, psychological phenomena. A sort of mass hysteria of some sort. 3.) A true, Holy Spirit derived manifestation, that has gotten out of control because of poor pastoring/leadership 4.) A legit expression of the manifestation of the spirit that just seems odd to the outsider.
Out of all of these, I'm going with either 1 or 3. The reason I think 3 is possible is because Paul himself had to direct the church in orderliness when it came to charismatic expression, which tells me that the early churches were practicing these things, and getting out of hand sometimes. Paul never condemns the manifestations themselves, never calls it evil, or demonic (in fact, commands the church not to forbid speaking in tongues), but instructs them to do so in a decently and orderly fashion. I'm also reminded of the early charismatic group, the Montanists, who, most scholars seem to agree, were orthodox for the most part, and identified as such for some time, but when they eventually got out of hand, the church proper declared them heretical.
1 is a tempting option because Satan is the author of confusion, and it seems contrary to all that is holy for holiness itself to turn into chaos or confusion. Also, let's be honest, it's plain creepy. I've been in services before where I could feel the air thick with something, and I couldn't really tell whether it was from God or not, and once I started seeing the manifestation my spidey-sense kicked in, and said, "no, this is off". I attribute that spidey-sense to the Holy Spirit.
I don't know. Could go either way for me.
The Toronto Blessing is clearly an example of 1 or 2, 3 isn't even an alternative for me . The manifestations in the Toronto Blessing such as "holy () laughter", being "drunk in the spirit" and convulsing on the floor has far more in common with the phenomena known in New Age circles as the "kundalini rising" than anything found in the Bible. There's a big difference between the unorderliness admonished by Paul and the unorderliness resulting from movements such as the Toronto Blessing. In the case of the early church it was the persons themselves that were the cause of the situation going out of hand (for example they chose to speak in tongues when it was not appropriate), or else it would have been pointless of Paul to admonish them in the first place. In the case of these clearly heretical movements however, the unorderliness is an integral part of the manifestations themselves, and since God is not a God of disorder these manifestations are clearly not from God. In the case of the early Church orderliness was actually attainable, or Paul wouldn't have admonished the Corinthians to behave in a more orderly fashion when manifesting the gifts of the Spirit. In the case of movements such as the Toronto Blessing however, achieving anything resembling orderliness isn't possible even in principle.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOn the third night, he actually got his Bible and was preaching on Jesus dying on the cross. The room was appropriately very quiet, and he was talking about Jesus calling out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him....
This woman behind me burst into hysterical laughter, and this triggered two other people on the other end of the auditorium to convulse in laughter, one of them actually falling into the isle, laughing and panting.
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