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Stoning to death in the OT and the situation now after the NT.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Which verse did you have in mind? I don't remember (and can't find) anything about Jesus keeping company with adulterers.
    I thought that Mary was a prostitute and that adultery under Jewish terms meant sex outside of marriage.
    “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
      True, other punishments were available. The difference though is that Jail or the death penalty remove that threat from society. Lashes do not. So there is that fundamental difference between the punishments.
      Right, so we can infer that the death penalties were for crimes that posed a great danger to the social order.

      Are social orders so different now? Have they become unaffected by the disorder created by deviant sexual behaviours and adultery?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
        adultery under Jewish terms meant sex outside of marriage.
        It doesn't. Only exception I can think of is claiming virginity and lying about it.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
          So I've been in a conversation in another thread in regards to the laws in the Old Testament using stoning as a punishment for breaking the moral laws in the Old Testament. My view on this was that the stoning was a legal law that was applied to a moral law but the challenge has been made that the stoning was part of the moral law and divine law. I'm looking for clarification on this and what reasons people have for their points of view.

          In regards to the OT we have as an example:

          Lev 20:10

          And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


          In the new testament we have the situation where the Pharisee's confront Jesus with an adulterous women and his then his response.

          John 8:3 to 8:11

          The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

          So what does this mean for Christians exactly?

          Do we still advocate stoning people for breaking moral laws?

          Was it overturned by Jesus in the NT?

          The thread in question where this topic arose was this one:

          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...arents!/page13

          Discussion between Paprika and I to start off with and then Darth Executor and Seer make contributions too.

          This is my take. If a society decided to execute an adulterer, or a rapist, or a homosexual that would not be unjust, there are behaviors worthy of death:

          Romans 1:

          26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

          28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
          But it also would not be merciful, and we should lean towards being merciful - if possible...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
            I thought that Mary was a prostitute and that adultery under Jewish terms meant sex outside of marriage.
            The idea that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute comes from the medieval period. Not from the Bible.
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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            • #21
              To answer the covenant question, I don't think the new covenant has much bearing on lawmaking. Jesus did not set up an earthly kingdom and otherwise had little to say on how to run one. I also don't think the new covenant shifted God's morality, so His hatred of adultery still stands (and Jesus confirms as much).
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                Right, so we can infer that the death penalties were for crimes that posed a great danger to the social order.
                Yes, agreed.

                Are social orders so different now? Have they become unaffected by the disorder created by deviant sexual behaviours and adultery?
                That's the question. A good one as well. I think we aren't in as bad a position that the Israelites were in. I might be wrong about this but I thought that prospective fathers over a child back then ended up fighting each other in the case of adultery. I don't know perhaps not but I thought I read that somewhere.
                “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  It doesn't. Only exception I can think of is claiming virginity and lying about it.
                  Interesting, I am actually quite shocked since I thought I heard this from multiple sources. Granted the first one was from Church and that's not always correct.

                  EDIT: So I take it that this means that the commandment "Thou shall not commit adultery" doesn't cover pre-marital sex? Or does it.
                  Last edited by Darth Ovious; 05-07-2015, 03:43 PM.
                  “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    This is my take. If a society decided to execute an adulterer, or a rapist, or a homosexual that would not be unjust, there are behaviors worthy of death:



                    But it also would not be merciful, and we should lean towards being merciful - if possible...
                    Thank you for your response.
                    “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      The idea that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute comes from the medieval period. Not from the Bible.
                      Mary of Bethany was considered a prostitute, but then I suppose she wasn't in the company of Jesus as such.
                      “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        don't technically all sins kill you?
                        "Some people feel guilty about their anxieties and regard them as a defect of faith but they are afflictions, not sins. Like all afflictions, they are, if we can so take them, our share in the passion of Christ." - That Guy Everyone Quotes

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
                          Mary of Bethany was considered a prostitute, but then I suppose she wasn't in the company of Jesus as such.
                          Mary of Bethany was considered a prostitute because she was equated with Mary Magdalene, AFAICS.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Mary of Bethany was considered a prostitute because she was equated with Mary Magdalene, AFAICS.
                            OK, I must have gained this idea somehow then and I think Andrew Llyod Webber's Jesus Christ Superstar is to blame then. In that she is shown as a prostitute or at least she looks like she is being depicted as one. At least in the shown I saw. I think I never really questioned it because of the passage that said Jesus did associate with sinners when he ate with them.

                            In that case I think my question needs to be rephrased in that context then. How do people mesh the passage that Jesus ate with sinners along with the OT laws in regards to stoning?
                            Last edited by Darth Ovious; 05-07-2015, 04:38 PM. Reason: Grammar
                            “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
                              OK, I must have gained this idea somehow then and I think Andrew Llyod Webber's Jesus Christ Superstar is to blame then. In that she is shown as a prostitute or at least she looks like she is being depicted as one. At least in the shown I saw. I think I never really questioned it because of the passage that said Jesus did associate with sinners when he ate with them.

                              In that case I think my question needs to be rephrased in that context then. How do people mesh the passage that Jesus ate with sinners along with the OT laws in regards to stoning?
                              I don't believe that the "sinners" were generally called that because they were committing stonable offenses. They were called that by the purist Pharisees because they weren't sufficiently concerned with ritual purity in their eyes AFAICS.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
                                In that case I think my question needs to be rephrased in that context then. How do people mesh the passage that Jesus ate with sinners along with the OT laws in regards to stoning?
                                I don't see tax collectors or prostitutes under the 'need to be stoned' list.

                                Comment

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