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Scripture - something that's been bothering me lately

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  • Scripture - something that's been bothering me lately

    How do I know that scripture was written correctly? Not as in big floods and battles and was Jesus crucified, but like how did the apostles write the Gospels years after Christ ascended into heaven and still get the wording of the parables right? I'm looking for something other than God inspired them to write it properly (if they are quoting the Lord) and other than the the Church says so. What else do we have?
    I am become death...

  • #2
    2 Timothy 3:16, 17

    All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

    Seems like the Holy Spirit had something to do with it. And that is sufficient for me.

    Same way the prophets before Christ knew what to write down.



    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      The New Testament has actually been kept remarkably well - the first Christians were devoted to accurately recording exactly what Jesus said. Some of the wording does in fact vary a little across some of the parables, but not in such a way that calls doctrine into question - the general gist is consistent and clear.

      Think of the rest of the NT in terms of apostolic authority. This is partly what the church (who were in position to know who had written them, although there were a few debates over a few books) depended on in giving them canonical statement.

      (I'm only talking about the NT here not to throw the OT under the bus, but because it's what I've been studying lately).
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        The information found in the Gospels is the basis for the instructions on how to live the Christian life, found in the the Epistles.

        The analogy is like if I restore a Honda Cub and send it to my son for his use in a small town without public transport. Later I find out that he is very happy with it but complains it is too slow. I realise he has been only using the low gear and neutral. I write him and tell him he can keep shifting up till he reaches the final third gear. When he stops at a light or at home, he can shift up again to get into neutral, without having to go through the reverse sequence, 2, 1 then neutral.

        Of course he is even happier and now he and even the others in his own family now enjoy fully the use of the machine.

        Now I realise that there may be other features in the machine he may not be using but may need in the future, like the cold starting. I write down a list of these features or go to a second hand bookstore and find an owner's manual for the "Nifty thrifty fifty" (it's a Beachboys song!) and send it to him.

        Of course the machine can be misused or under utilised if the manual is kept untouched in a book shelf, but that's not my fault, but the fault of the user.

        Similarly, many instructions were sent to the churches in Corinth, Ephesus and others, to solve the specific problems that were reported. The church in Jerusalem realised that there would come a time when other problems would arise or the solutions that they had offered for the existing problems would be questioned, so they wrote down all the instructions they had received from Christ. Further, they added one more layer of authenticity into the mix, by providing information about Christ, which confirmed He was indeed the Messiah promised by God for the purpose of saving His people from their sins, since He fulfilled in at least 300 different ways what was written in the Law and the Prophets.

        So the Gospels are an owner's manual (manufacturer's/Creator's operating instructions) for the Christian life as well as the written record of the Apostles of the events they witnessed that confirmed that Christ was indeed the authorized Savior promised by God, as revealed to Moses and the other Old Testament Prophets.

        Similarly, this information is of no use if the books are not studied, but stored away in some dark locker. The proper use would be to understand the information found in the books through study, and confirm if the practices found in our lives match.

        For example, the way the church was organised was new, a departure from how pagan temples or synagogues were run. The pagan temples, especially, had priests who would deliver a lecture and it was considered to be an oracle from God. However, in the church, a new form of assembling, God had promised through the prophet Joel that His Spirit would fall on all believers, not only on prophets and all would receive gifts and revelations and dreams. No person would ask his neighbor what the instructions from God were, because they would be written on each person's heart.

        This was repeated by the Apostles in their written instructions (letters, epistles) to the foreign churches and their authenticity and authority was confirmed by the sending of the Gospels, the instructions of the original Creator of the church, specifically that from henceforth, their Teacher would be God Himself, with proof that He was indeed the original Creator of the church, specifically that He was born of a promise that His birth would be special, a virgin birth, as revealed to the Gospel writer in a special way, by using the sloppiness of the translator of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek!

        Remember, layers and layers of authentication!
        Last edited by footwasher; 04-17-2015, 08:36 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Also this is true for orthodox and catholics we have the Traditions to confirm the teachings of scripture and faith. Traditions enhance our faith greatly and even more so confirm the writings of the gospels the acts peter Paul Hebrews john and of course the old testament. It might be wise to engage in some study of them.
          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
          George Bernard Shaw

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            The New Testament has actually been kept remarkably well - the first Christians were devoted to accurately recording exactly what Jesus said. Some of the wording does in fact vary a little across some of the parables, but not in such a way that calls doctrine into question - the general gist is consistent and clear.

            Think of the rest of the NT in terms of apostolic authority. This is partly what the church (who were in position to know who had written them, although there were a few debates over a few books) depended on in giving them canonical statement.

            (I'm only talking about the NT here not to throw the OT under the bus, but because it's what I've been studying lately).
            Why is it ok for it to vary?

            What kept it from varying more? Was oral history common then like it was in some cultures I have learned of? Do you think they kept notes during their time with Jesus? I hardly remember conversations I had 10 years ago, and I read that some Gospel(s) were written ~43AD if I remember correctly.

            (Talking about NT is fine. I was particularly wondering about the writing of the Gospels.)
            I am become death...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              2 Timothy 3:16, 17




              Seems like the Holy Spirit had something to do with it. And that is sufficient for me.

              Same way the prophets before Christ knew what to write down.

              Ok, so how did they (prophets) remember what to write down in the historical books when the events had already taken place years before in their lives?
              I am become death...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Anastasia Dragule View Post
                Ok, so how did they (prophets) remember what to write down in the historical books when the events had already taken place years before in their lives?

                The Holy Spirit gave them remembrance. Maybe they wrote stuff down as they went along, when they had the prophecies given to them by God.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Also recollect that two of the gospel writers had a direct relationship with Jesus making them first hand accounts. Luke was a companion of Paul who wrote accounts based on eyewitness testimony. He essentially was a researcher and recorded events spoken of. His gospel is given from Mary's perspective leading some to wonder if he heard the story from Mary herself. Who better to know than Jesus mother what his life was like? And later the people who were his friends and his mother's caregiver.
                  A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                  George Bernard Shaw

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                    Also recollect that two of the gospel writers had a direct relationship with Jesus making them first hand accounts. Luke was a companion of Paul who wrote accounts based on eyewitness testimony. He essentially was a researcher and recorded events spoken of. His gospel is given from Mary's perspective leading some to wonder if he heard the story from Mary herself. Who better to know than Jesus mother what his life was like? And later the people who were his friends and his mother's caregiver.
                    Only two were direct contacts?

                    Well that would explain further were worded differently in Luke, but it would make sense that could be less perfect in the wording but captured to ideas and key events very well.
                    Last edited by Ana Dragule; 04-18-2015, 12:25 AM.
                    I am become death...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
                      Only two were direct contacts?
                      We don't know for sure if Mark was, though he was very connected to the apostles. Luke says at the beginning that he researched what he wrote about (I imagine he probably interviewed eyewitnesses).

                      Matthew and John were disciples, of course.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
                        Why is it ok for it to vary?
                        Variation can also be explained by the simple fact that Jesus would have repeated many of his parables and teachings as he travelled around and it is unlikely that he would have used the same precise wording every time.

                        What kept it from varying more? Was oral history common then like it was in some cultures I have learned of?
                        The strong oral culture in which teachings by rabbis were memorised by students, plus various mnemonic devices, plus the fact that conversations with Jesus would have been more important than the average conversation one has had so more attention would be paid.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ana Dragule View Post
                          Why is it ok for it to vary?

                          What kept it from varying more? Was oral history common then like it was in some cultures I have learned of? Do you think they kept notes during their time with Jesus? I hardly remember conversations I had 10 years ago, and I read that some Gospel(s) were written ~43AD if I remember correctly.

                          (Talking about NT is fine. I was particularly wondering about the writing of the Gospels.)
                          In addition to what's been said, they highly valued memory, and would therefor transmit things in a way to enhance memorizing the accounts. They also did not value word for word accuracy the way is done today, it's the meaning that was important, not exact phrases. Over on youtube tektontv has a few videos discussing these issues, and tektonics.org has good articles on the subject as well.

                          http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/orality01.php#recall

                          http://www.tektonics.org/harmonize/gospelprecision.php

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Variation in the gospels can also be accounted for due to the fact that each writer wrote with a different focus. For example, Matthew wrote with the focus being on Christ the King, John with the focus on Christ as God.

                            And the personalities as well as the writing styles of the person would have come through in the writing. As was said before, this was not automatic writing, where God took control of their movement and minds.
                            Last edited by mossrose; 04-19-2015, 11:34 AM.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Scripture declares itself to be complete, pure, eternal, clean, true. It tells us that it is sufficient as divine doctrine (or established truth). It lays a path out for us as to how we should live, and gives us all the advice we need to navigate the path. It gives us joy. It is authoritative, sovereign, binding, non-optional demands by God on men.

                              The writers of the OT understood these things, and the people who read the laws of God (and I mean all of scripture), were responsible for knowing it and abiding by it. And the writers of the NT also knew the OT and took it beyond to gentiles and Jews so there was no excuse not to understand it. NONE of the writers of the scriptures used anything else to present God's instructions to mankind.

                              Scripture is the only manual on worship. It alone instructs us on how to worship God in spirit and in truth. And it is pure. It is without error and corruption, free of defilement......until man starts adding to it or saying "the Bible and OUR book", as the Mormons do. It endures forever.

                              Of course, if you don't believe in the sufficiency of scripture, then this post will mean nothing to you.

                              Psalm 19:

                              1 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
                              And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

                              2 Day to day pours forth speech,
                              And night to night reveals knowledge.

                              3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
                              Their voice is not heard.

                              4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
                              And their utterances to the end of the world.
                              In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

                              5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber;
                              It rejoices as a strong man to run his course.

                              6 Its rising is from one end of the heavens,
                              And its circuit to the other end of them;
                              And there is nothing hidden from its heat.

                              7 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
                              The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

                              8 The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
                              The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

                              9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever;
                              The judgments of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether.

                              10 They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
                              Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.

                              11 Moreover, by them Your servant is warned;
                              In keeping them there is great reward.

                              12 Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults.

                              13 Also keep back Your servant from presumptuous sins;
                              Let them not rule over me;
                              Then I will be blameless,
                              And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.

                              14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
                              Be acceptable in Your sight,
                              O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.


                              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                              Comment

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