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  • #46
    Christians are grafted into Abraham's family.
    Gentiles believers are not made physically into Jews by faith, but by faith they are part of Israel, are counted as heirs to the promise, and are counted as circumcised.
    "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
      but by faith they are ... counted as circumcised.
      Really?

      And what about keeping the Passover? Going to conveniently not address it again?

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        It's possible that the first Christians all kept the law as Jesus did (which is to say, they observed the laws of the Torah, not all the traditions accreted around it to "protect" it). The prohibition of eating meat and dairy products together, for example, completely misses the point of Torah law upon which it is based.
        The problem is that ancient Hebrew didn't use vowels, so that leaves the command open to to a possible interpretation that prohibits eating meat and dairy together. I'm not convinced that that is the correct interpretation, but I no longer use it as an example of rabbis getting carried away.

        That depends on what exactly is meant by "Torah observance." The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day claimed HE wasn't being Torah observant.
        They agreed that the Torah should be observed, but disagreed about how it should be observed.

        I don't recall seeing that complaint, though Judaism was hardly monolithic at the time. Who was complaining? The Pharisees? Saducees? Essenes?
        It was a quote of Jewish literature that I found in an article a while back, so I don't recall which group specifically it was, but again their disagreement was not about whether the law should be observed, but about the way in which is should be observed.

        Is there good Messianic Judaism? The label, it seems to me, displays a reluctance to identify oneself with Christians in favor of emphasizing one's Jewishness (a stance of which Paul certainly would disapprove).
        Messianic Judaism is made up of Jews who recognize Jesus as their Messiah and Gentiles that recognize the innate Jewishness of Christianity and that we follow a Jewish Messiah. Good Messianic Judaism emphasizes the Jewishness of Christianity, not one's Jewishness, and it does not hesitate to identify as Christian. While it is true that there are some Messianics who look down on Gentiles and Gentiles who are made to be inferior, that is not how it should be.

        Paul was arguing against the idea that people had a better or worse status based on which group they belong to. He was not denying that there were Jews, Gentiles, slaves, free, men, or women, but was saying that they all had equal when it comes to being in Christ. In other words, Paul was not denying the Jewishness of Christianity, but that that gives superior status to Jews.

        IIRC Bah'a'ullah claimed to be the Muslim Mahdi.
        Lots of people have claimed to be Jesus too. The point again is that we don't expect them to start a new religion.

        Jesus came in fulfillment of the Jewish Tanakh, but, properly understood, Christianity transcends Judaism to encompass humanity. It is the "faithful remnant" of the prophets with the inclusion of the Gentiles which those same prophets predict.
        Gentile inclusion does not mean Gentile transcendence.

        Those who attempted to follow both the old and new covenants in the time of the Church Fathers tended to have rather unorthodox theology. And the liturgy of the Orthodox Church is still based on the synagogue service from which it developed.
        I said nothing about following the Old Covenant and I would be opposed to people going back to it. God's holy, righteous, and good standard exist independently of any covenant that offers additional rewards or punishments based on whether or not you live in accordance with God's standard. When people under the Old Covenant sin, they are violating both their covenant and God's standard.

        If the point is that Jews tend to misrepresent Christianity, they do.
        My point was that when Jews read the NT they recognize who thoroughly Jewish it is. Also that if Jesus had taught against keeping the law, it would have disqualified him as the Messiah. Jesus was not at odds with God's holy, righteous, and good standard.
        "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Really?

          And what about keeping the Passover? Going to conveniently not address it again?
          Indeed, I thought that had already been address sufficiently. If circumcision of the heart matters much more than circumcision of the flesh, then how much more does it count towards that requirement for Passover?
          Last edited by Soyeong; 04-19-2015, 05:24 PM.
          "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
            Indeed, I thought that had already been address sufficiently.
            You've merely avoided the issue. If A matters more than B, it does not mean that B is completely null and redundant and revoked.

            The Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their hearts in Deuteronomy, but that did not replace the requirements of physical circumcision.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              You've merely avoided the issue. If A matters more than B, it does not mean that B is completely null and redundant and revoked.

              The Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their hearts in Deuteronomy, but that did not replace the requirements of physical circumcision.
              Romans 2:26-29 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically[c] uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code[d] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
              Last edited by Soyeong; 04-19-2015, 11:12 PM.
              "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                Romans 2:26-29 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically[c] uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code[d] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
                The Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their hearts in Deuteronomy, but that did not replace the requirements of physical circumcision.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  The Israelites were exhorted to circumcise their hearts in Deuteronomy, but that did not replace the requirements of physical circumcision.
                  Indeed, God's law does require Jews to become physically circumcised as a sign of the covenant, but if God were to choose who could eat of the lamb between someone who was physically circumcised who lived in complete disregard to His law and someone who was uncircumcised who lived in obedience to His law, I have no expectation that God would choose the first over the second. He would regard the first as being uncircumcised and the second as being circumcised.
                  "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                    Indeed, God's law does require Jews to become physically circumcised as a sign of the covenant
                    So what are you and the other Gentiles in your group waiting for?

                    but if God were to choose who could eat of the lamb between someone who was physically circumcised who lived in complete disregard to His law and someone who was uncircumcised who lived in obedience to His law, I have no expectation that God would choose the first over the second. He would regard the first as being uncircumcised and the second as being circumcised.
                    I'm pretty sure God would have been unhappy about some of the circumcised people eating the Passover but that does not nullify the command to be circumcised.

                    Weren't you the one claiming that all of God's commands needed to be kept?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      So what are you and the other Gentiles in your group waiting for?
                      I have never advocated joining the Old covenant and I would be opposed to anything thinking that we should.

                      I'm pretty sure God would have been unhappy about some of the circumcised people eating the Passover but that does not nullify the command to be circumcised.

                      Weren't you the one claiming that all of God's commands needed to be kept?
                      The law is spiritual, so I think a case can be made for going by the spirit of the law rather than the letter, though the easy solution would be for them to be circumcised. Before you cry Galatians 5:2, roughly about 80% of the men in the USA are circumcised, so is Paul saying that Christ is no value to them? I think not, so the reason behind getting circumcised is important. If people were already justified by faith and then rejected Christ's gift in an attempt to be justified by becoming a Jew and keeping the law, then Christ would be of no value to them. If they someone gets circumcised because they want to obey God out of faith and love, then it would be appropriate.
                      "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                        I have never advocated joining the Old covenant and I would be opposed to anything thinking that we should.
                        You need to follow the Mosaic Law to eat the Passover. You need to be circumcised to do so. Do it.

                        The law is spiritual, so I think a case can be made for going by the spirit of the law rather than the letter, though the easy solution would be for them to be circumcised... If they someone gets circumcised because they want to obey God out of faith and love, then it would be appropriate.
                        "easy" solution? Going "by the spirit"? "Appropriate"?

                        You've made so much noise in multiple threads about obeying all of God's commands. Now when pointed that entails that circumcision has to be done you backpedal and evade.

                        By Mosaic Law Passover has to be kept. To keep Passover the males have to be circumcised. So to keep God's commands, as you have been emphasised so much, you need to be circumcised.

                        It is not merely 'appropriate'. It is necessary.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          And really, who is this rabbi of yours that can't do even simple exegesis to the effect that circumcision is necessary to keep God's commands?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            You've made so much noise in multiple threads about obeying all of God's commands. Now when pointed that entails that circumcision has to be done you backpedal and evade.

                            By Mosaic Law Passover has to be kept. To keep Passover the males have to be circumcised. So to keep God's commands, as you have been emphasised so much, you need to be circumcised.

                            It is not merely 'appropriate'. It is necessary.
                            It's amusing that you think I backpedaled. I distinctly said that I think the case can be made a circumcised heart more than qualifies for the requirement for eating of the lamb. Even then, people who are uncircumcised can celebrate Passover without eating of the lamb. I think I'm right, but even if I'm wrong, someone can cover their bases by simply getting circumcised, so you're obsessing over a moot point.

                            And really, who is this rabbi of yours that can't do even simple exegesis to the effect that circumcision is necessary to keep God's commands?
                            Did you see my quoting my rabbi in this regard?
                            "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                              It's amusing that you think I backpedaled. I distinctly said that I think the case can be made a circumcised heart more than qualifies for the requirement for eating of the lamb.
                              And I've demonstrated that that's merely an ad hoc dismissal.

                              Even then, people who are uncircumcised can celebrate Passover without eating of the lamb.


                              someone can cover their bases by simply getting circumcised
                              It's not about playing safe and covering's one's bases, it's about the necessity of keeping all of God's commands (which you've been trumpeting in many threads).

                              Did you see my quoting my rabbi in this regard?
                              If your rabbi agreed with me that circumcision is necessary you wouldn't be putting up all your silly objections.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                The two reasons why believers would change denominations would be:

                                Discovering that the new group has compelling answers for topics that are important to them

                                Finding out that the answers expand their understanding of their faith

                                In the process, shaky understandings of issues that are not relevant to their needs do not seem to bother them, as can be seen by the large numbers of people who hold on to the various unorthodox sects like Mormonism and JWism. They live with massive contradictions anx do do Messianic Jews.


                                An important issue in the first category is the view of Law, and I am very happy to understand that Law is eternal, has always existed, since people died even when no formal code was revealed by God, and people only die if they transgress, and transgression happens only if law exists.

                                Law existed even in the Garden, in all its aspects and Adam was only immune from death because he was not exposed to law by virtue of God not placing him under the law's jurisdiction.

                                The same situation exists for those who are IN Christ. We are in the new humanity, which is also spared from the jurisdiction of Law, by virtue of Christ winning the authority to represent the old humanity, dying and putting into force a will, because no will can be put into force without a death, the terms of the will being that those who were IN Christ, in the new humanity, by virtue of faith, would enjoy the benefits of the new administration, not of Law but of Grace, meaning that whilst the Old Administration had requirements and those who did not meet the requirements, meaning all, were under a curse, would die, meaning not live the entirety of the life eternal, a type of living, whence in the presence of God one's earthly needs world be met and one would contribute to the restoration of creation, if one honoured law, but only enjoy in part eternal living, have the needs of one's earthly existence met but not have the gift of enabling to contribute to the restoration of creation.

                                Where as those IN Christ WOULD have the opportunity to live the entirety of eternal living: they would have all their early needs met, be enabled to contribute to the restoration of creation as well as not be under the jurisdiction of the law. In other words, enjoy all the benefits the first Adam enjoyed.


                                Messianic Judaism seems to provide a safe answer to how a believer should understand law, although whether that view is safe is itself debatable since Scripture teaches that those who place themselves under Law are under the curse associated with Law,.since Christ will be of no benefit to them, these losing that which qualifies them to be co-inheritors of the will with Christ, faith in Him, who is Himself the first beneficiary of that will, testament, covenant.


                                That deals with the peace Messianic have with the view of Law. My question is what way does their teachings deal with expanding the range of issues they are able to understand.

                                For example, the conventional understanding of the purpose of creation, God's game plan, His will, is for men to turn to Him so that they may escape judgement, and Hell, and find refuge in heaven. That sounds rather simplistic, because the original plan seems to have been a partnering with God to complete the work of creation, subduing the world, of which man's natural self is present in microcosm, affirming God's righteousness in the physical realm as it has already been assigned in the spiritual, ie. His will being done on earth as it is done in heaven.


                                Orthodox Judaism teaches that chayei olam, eternal living, is the observing of God's commandments, doing mitzvot, contributing to the restoration of creation, repairing creation, tikkun olam. The view is derivative, based on that which is found in the written and the oral instructions, and is speculative, since no tangible results are seen.

                                Compare that with the teaching of Christ:

                                John 5:39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


                                I suppose I'm saying that doctrinal soundness isn't going to generate progress in this discussion, because highly qualified scholars have already formed well supported views for their own positions. What may tip the discussion in favor of a particular position is evidence of tangible improvement in the situation of creation, actual regeneration of dead creatures:


                                John 7:38Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them."

                                Jeremiah 2:13"My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living
                                water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

                                Revelation 7:17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.'

                                Zechariah 14:8On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

                                9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.
                                Last edited by footwasher; 04-20-2015, 02:23 AM.

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