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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Is there good Messianic Judaism? The label, it seems to me, displays a reluctance to identify oneself with Christians in favor of emphasizing one's Jewishness (a stance of which Paul certainly would disapprove).
    I agree with most of the points in your post; this one I do take some issue with. Paul identified himself as a Pharisee with no further qualification in Acts 23:8. Granted, the context was to try to drive a wedge between the two factions that were joined in his opposition; nonetheless, we do have this example.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I agree with most of the points in your post; this one I do take some issue with. Paul identified himself as a Pharisee with no further qualification in Acts 23:8. Granted, the context was to try to drive a wedge between the two factions that were joined in his opposition; nonetheless, we do have this example.
      Did he habitually refer to himself as a Pharisee? I don't think he did. Similarly, I have no issue with Jewish Christians identifying themselves as Jewish; I just don't think it should be their primary means of self-identification.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Did he habitually refer to himself as a Pharisee? I don't think he did. Similarly, I have no issue with Jewish Christians identifying themselves as Jewish; I just don't think it should be their primary means of self-identification.
        I'd agree with this; a general thrust of the Pauline writings is that one's identity should be steeped in Christ.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I'd agree with this; a general thrust of the Pauline writings is that one's identity should be steeped in Christ.
          And not only our identity but our spirituality, life and blessing:

          "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places," (Eph. 1:3).

          "For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us." (2Cor. 1:20).

          "Seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence." (2Pet. 1:3).

          "When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)

          "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6).

          "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." (2Cor. 11:3).

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          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            I'd agree with this; a general thrust of the Pauline writings is that one's identity should be steeped in Christ.
            And part of that identity is expressed in wanting to understand Christ as the Jewish Messiah that came to save the world. Not everyone who is Messianic says they are Jewish. I have met several who say their religion is Christian, and some identify with the Jewish side because that is how they understand Christ-this one may be more debateable but could also be a cultural expression as not every Christian worships on Sunday, with Hebrew, and celebrates Yeshua's birth around Sukkot instead of Christmas (which itself has some less biblical cultural baggage that is secondary to the gospel). If your identity is in a Jewish Messiah, and you worship that way, why would you want to identify as someone so far removed to say you follow the incarnate Son of God? Wasn't the real problem saying that you have to officially be Jewish and that you have to obey all the laws as a Jew and the legalism that missed what is the kingdom of God and how we are saved in it?
            Last edited by Ana Dragule; 04-16-2015, 09:15 PM.
            I am become death...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I took issue because you were describing the "group she joined" thusly.

              It's possible that the first Christians all kept the law as Jesus did (which is to say, they observed the laws of the Torah, not all the traditions accreted around it to "protect" it). The prohibition of eating meat and dairy products together, for example, completely misses the point of Torah law upon which it is based.

              That depends on what exactly is meant by "Torah observance." The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day claimed HE wasn't being Torah observant.

              Is there good Messianic Judaism? The label, it seems to me, displays a reluctance to identify oneself with Christians in favor of emphasizing one's Jewishness (a stance of which Paul certainly would disapprove).
              Jewish leaders of Jesus's day didn't necessarily understand what was important in Torah. Jesus said that divorce had been allowed because of the hardness of their hearts. If the people really understand what God had in mind for how they were to live, that would not have been an issue. Some Messiancs have no problem with eating a cheeseburger.
              I am become death...

              Comment


              • #22
                [QUOTE=Adrift;186100]Is the Messianic community united in any way, like a coalition of churches? Are those who disagree over the issue of whether Gentles should follow the law labeled something special? If I was interested, how would I find a non-legalistic congregation in my area?

                There are various groups within the Messianic community, but I am still relatively new to it and am not very familiar with their differences. Years before I joined my congregation, but there were people who held a variety of beliefs and were forming factions within the congregation with people who shared those beliefs. This was causing tensions and causing other problems, such as with visitors getting different answers about what we believed depending on who they happened to sit next to. So our rabbi required all members to sign a statement of faith about what we did and did not believe so that we would all be on the same page. There is something to be said about overlooking our differences and focusing on who we all are in Messiah, but there is also something to be said about differences building up to the point where they are unhealthy to the life of a congregation. His decision caused some people to leave, but the tension left with them, and our congregation went from being stagnant to flourishing again, so he still holds that it was one of his better decisions.

                I think even within the same denomination there can be a variety of viewpoints, often depending on the church leadership. So I think the best way would be do a google search for "Messianic Judaism + zip code". From there, look at their statements of faith and/or contact them with your question. I'd invite you to visit if you happen to live near St. Paul, MN. Still, there is a lot you can listen to online even if there is not a good congregation in your area.

                Have you seen the documentary The Chosen People about a Messianic congregation in Toronto and the hassle they endure by fellow Jews? Pretty interesting. Here's the trailer.
                That does look interesting, thanks. On one hand, I do sympathize with Jews who see themselves as being constantly under both physical and spiritual attack, but on the other, I am happy to see Messianic Judaism flourishing in the face of opposition.
                "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

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                • #23
                  [QUOTE=Soyeong;186447]
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Is the Messianic community united in any way, like a coalition of churches? Are those who disagree over the issue of whether Gentles should follow the law labeled something special? If I was interested, how would I find a non-legalistic congregation in my area?

                  There are various groups within the Messianic community, but I am still relatively new to it and am not very familiar with their differences. Years before I joined my congregation, but there were people who held a variety of beliefs and were forming factions within the congregation with people who shared those beliefs. This was causing tensions and causing other problems, such as with visitors getting different answers about what we believed depending on who they happened to sit next to. So our rabbi required all members to sign a statement of faith about what we did and did not believe so that we would all be on the same page. There is something to be said about overlooking our differences and focusing on who we all are in Messiah, but there is also something to be said about differences building up to the point where they are unhealthy to the life of a congregation. His decision caused some people to leave, but the tension left with them, and our congregation went from being stagnant to flourishing again, so he still holds that it was one of his better decisions.

                  I think even within the same denomination there can be a variety of viewpoints, often depending on the church leadership. So I think the best way would be do a google search for "Messianic Judaism + zip code". From there, look at their statements of faith and/or contact them with your question. I'd invite you to visit if you happen to live near St. Paul, MN. Still, there is a lot you can listen to online even if there is not a good congregation in your area.

                  That does look interesting, thanks. On one hand, I do sympathize with Jews who see themselves as being constantly under both physical and spiritual attack, but on the other, I am happy to see Messianic Judaism flourishing in the face of opposition.
                  Crazy.

                  I was in a UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations) and we did not have to sign anything like that. I don't think I did much more than let someone have my contact info if needed (but we also has Catholics, non-denoms, and just plain Messianics in our group all celebrating Yeshua). MJAA (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America) is also one of the major groups if you will, but I have not visited a congregation of theirs.
                  I am become death...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    That's all well and good, but my question was the following: What academic theological qualifications does your teacher Mr. Farr possess?
                    I do not know his theological qualifications off hand, but I told you he is very knowledgeable of the Old and New Testament, so it is obvious that he has them, but feel free to double check what he says.
                    "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2Cor. 517)

                      The above reality is what many HRM and "Messianic" movements are unable to grasp. They stop short of the fullness of the New Covenant and fail to see the spiritual reality of the one new man/third humanity (Eph. 2:15) and new creation (Gal. 6:15) - where there is no Jew nor Gentile. In short, they do not understand what it means to be "in Christ".
                      Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

                      1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

                      John 15:1-8 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

                      How to do good works/practice righteousness/bear much fruit remains the same regardless of whether you are a Jew or a Gentile. If you don't understand that being "in Christ" means that you will follow God's instructions for how do those things, then you are the one who does not understand what it means.
                      "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                        I do not know his theological qualifications off hand, but I told you he is very knowledgeable of the Old and New Testament, so it is obvious that he has them, but feel free to double check what he says.
                        Off hand? Or you never knew them in the first place? Our teachers ought to be tried, tested, and true and vetted by accredited academic institutions. So please, find out his qualifications and let me know.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                          Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

                          1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's[b] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

                          John 15:1-8 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

                          How to do good works/practice righteousness/bear much fruit remains the same regardless of whether you are a Jew or a Gentile. If you don't understand that being "in Christ" means that you will follow God's instructions for how do those things, then you are the one who does not understand what it means.
                          No born-again Christian takes issue with good deeds, nor righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            Off hand? Or you never knew them in the first place? Our teachers ought to be tried, tested, and true and vetted by accredited academic institutions. So please, find out his qualifications and let me know.
                            I've been to several healthy and functional churches with Pastors/Teachers who had no accreditation. While I think its certainly beneficial for teachers to be accredited, I'm not seeing where you're getting that they ought to be.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                              I've been to several healthy and functional churches with Pastors/Teachers who had no accreditation. While I think its certainly beneficial for teachers to be accredited, I'm not seeing where you're getting that they ought to be.
                              Well, Soyeong is in theological error (believes Christian's must obey the Mosaic law, or they are in disobedience), and he is seeking out teachers who reaffirm that error. These teachers are deceived because they are unlearned and Soy is following in their footsteps and unintentionally going about deceiving others. I am attempting to make him see this by pushing him into the light of scholars who rightly divide the word of truth. For example, he will listen to Jim Stanley (a false teacher, with no formal training) preach through Galatians instead of reading a scholarly commentary written by a trusted evangelical scholar like Douglas Moo (who would correct his fundamental error):

                              http://www.amazon.com/Galatians-Bake...tians+doug+moo
                              Last edited by Scrawly; 04-17-2015, 04:46 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                                Well, Soyeong is in theological error (believes Christian's must obey the Mosaic law, or they are in disobedience), and he is seeking out teachers who reaffirm that error. These teachers are deceived because they are unlearned and Soy is following in their footsteps and unintentionally going about deceiving others. I am attempting to make him see this by pushing him into the light of scholars who rightly divide the word of truth. For example, he will listen to Jim Stanley (a false teacher, with no formal training) preach through Galatians instead of reading a scholarly commentary written by a trusted evangelical scholar like Douglas Moo (who would correct his fundamental error):

                                http://www.amazon.com/Galatians-Bake...tians+doug+moo
                                I agree its theological error, but I don't know if this is something that can be so easily rectified by simply pointing to good scholars. I'm curious, too, what sort of academic backing Soyeong's position may have, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that some scholar some place presents a view that gives some credence to his Pastor/Rabbi's interpretation. Hopefully I'm wrong though. Hopefully it can be rectified by pointing to the correct scholars, or pointing to a consensus opinion on the subject, or the reasonableness of the view that you and I hold.

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