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Holiness

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    Its also addressed in the Old Testament, even more strongly. I don't want to play act a moral theologian in this discussion, because I realize my inadequacy on this subject. However its not as if Christ simple abolished the whole of the Mosaic Law, and only such things as have been mentioned in the NT apply. And its also the case that we're called to be holy, which implies that we should strive to live free of deliberate sin, no Christian gets a free pass to sin (I know you're an Eastern Orthodox so we should see eye to eye on this).
    The Mosaic Law was not abolished; it was fulfilled/superceded in Christ. As far as I can see, the NT more or less reinforces the spirit of the "moral laws" of the OT (and the thought, much less the action, is now condemned).

    I'm kinda reacting strongly to anything that resembles the notion of "I'm a Christian, I believe Christ rose from the dead and I love Him, but its okay that me and my girlfriend are sleeping together even though we're not married. I mean we're all sinners, and its faith that saves so there." which is really prevalent in my country.
    I would never advocate any sort of notion like that.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      Do come back when you're less reactive.
      He has no obligation to put up with your asininity.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #18
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        He has no obligation to put up with your asininity.
        It's an invitation to come back when he is able to be rational.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          It's an invitation to come back when he is able to be rational.
          There's nothing irrational about simply preferring a more pleasant conversation.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            There's nothing irrational about simply preferring a more pleasant conversation.
            It's irrational to bow out just because one doesn't like 'imbecility' - which isn't even targeted at oneself.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Its also addressed in the Old Testament, even more strongly. I don't want to play act a moral theologian in this discussion, because I realize my inadequacy on this subject. However its not as if Christ simple abolished the whole of the Mosaic Law, and only such things as have been mentioned in the NT apply. And its also the case that we're called to be holy, which implies that we should strive to live free of deliberate sin, no Christian gets a free pass to sin (I know you're an Eastern Orthodox so we should see eye to eye on this).

              I'm kinda reacting strongly to anything that resembles the notion of "I'm a Christian, I believe Christ rose from the dead and I love Him, but its okay that me and my girlfriend are sleeping together even though we're not married. I mean we're all sinners, and its faith that saves so there." which is really prevalent in my country.
              I know you said you were leaving in a subsequent post, but I felt I needed to say this about the underlined.

              In all my life I've only met one person who thinks that way. This person has had a very bad impact on people I care about. This kind of attitude is clearly not Christian teaching. I've never seen anybody teach it either. I know I'm more sheltered than some, but I think my family would have at least mentioned it if it was more common elsewhere around here. All of the churches and ministries I've known teach how important repentance is.

              I'm guessing this is not limited to your country, but I don't think it's as widespread as you might think.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                I know you said you were leaving in a subsequent post, but I felt I needed to say this about the underlined.

                In all my life I've only met one person who thinks that way. This person has had a very bad impact on people I care about. This kind of attitude is clearly not Christian teaching. I've never seen anybody teach it either. I know I'm more sheltered than some, but I think my family would have at least mentioned it if it was more common elsewhere around here. All of the churches and ministries I've known teach how important repentance is.

                I'm guessing this is not limited to your country, but I don't think it's as widespread as you might think.
                I suspect (but can't prove) that many people who are familiar with John 3:16 and a few other Bible verses take words like "believe" completely literally in their American English context and have a similar mindset. Of course, an even basic familiarity with the New Testament would demonstrate that this isn't a viable reading...
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  I suspect (but can't prove) that many people who are familiar with John 3:16 and a few other Bible verses take words like "believe" completely literally in their American English context and have a similar mindset. Of course, an even basic familiarity with the New Testament would demonstrate that this isn't a viable reading...
                  I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that I think it must be a lot rarer where I live. I've met 1 person in like that my whole life, and it's clear to most that that person isn't living by the Bible. I also met people from all over the world when I would visit Dr. Hooshmand. I'll admit I wasn't "all there" a lot of the time, but I after that first year, I was a bit more aware of what was being said. Either Leon's sample, or mine, or both are way off on this.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that I think it must be a lot rarer where I live. I've met 1 person in like that my whole life, and it's clear to most that that person isn't living by the Bible. I also met people from all over the world when I would visit Dr. Hooshmand. I'll admit I wasn't "all there" a lot of the time, but I after that first year, I was a bit more aware of what was being said. Either Leon's sample, or mine, or both are way off on this.
                    The Grace Evangelical Society teaches it, but I believe most people see them for who they are (sadly, Glenn Miller links to them on his website):

                    http://www.faithalone.org/
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      The Grace Evangelical Society teaches it, but I believe most people see them for who they are (sadly, Glenn Miller links to them on his website):

                      http://www.faithalone.org/

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        The higher context, of course, is that Jesus has fulfilled the Mosaic Law and that a new Covenant has been inaugurated that for those who are in Him the Mosaic Law no longer applies.
                        Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, so you should interpret "fulfilling the Law" in the same way that you interpret "fulfilling the Prophets". That of course leads to problems if prophecies in regard to his second coming would be done away with. The phrase "to fulfill the law" was a rabbinic term that means to explain or interpret law. In a synagogue, a rabbi take his place on the Moses Seat where he would read from one of the scrolls and then interpret it or clarify its meaning, thereby fulfilling the law. When Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, he was not referring to a once and for all event, but rather that he came to explain or interpret the law, which is precisely what he spent the rest of Matthew 5 doing.

                        God is holy, righteous, and good, and He gave a law to Moses that is holy, righteous, and good by which we can measure against to tell which things are sins, and by which God will hold the world accountable. This holy, righteous, and good standard is independently of any particular covenant to follow it. Someone who is righteous is someone who practices righteousness, so when we are declared by faith by God to be righteous, that means we are declared to be someone who practices righteousness. How do we practice righteousness? It just so happens that God gave holy, righteous, and good instructions to Moses for how to do that. The same goes being holy. We can't become righteous or holy through our own efforts, but rather practicing righteousness and holiness is what those who are declared to be righteous and holy are called to do.

                        Deuteronomy 6:25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”

                        The quotations from the Pentateuch are to establish that that the church is now the true Israel, not the Jews, and that there is are high demands on the people within - but not the Mosaic Law.
                        As Ephesians 2:11-22 makes clear, the Gentiles who were separated from the Jews that are being joined to them by faith in Messiah. Not to replace, but to be part of Israel without having to become Jews. Everything that applied to God's chosen people then applies to God's chosen people today.
                        "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          [QUOTE=Leonhard;185211]We certainly don't have to get circumcised any longer, and we're dispensed legally from any purity rituals. However we're still obligated to fulfill all the moral commandments.

                          The law only commands Gentiles to be circumcised in two instances, neither of which is a command for all Gentiles. In other words, it not that we don't have to get circumcised any longer, that that it was never a requirement in the first place. In rejecting the circumcision group in Acts 15:1, they were ruling against a man-made requirement and upholding God's laws.

                          I'm not saying you said this, but if moral commands are only in regard to man's relationship with man and not man's relationship with God, then the first four of the Ten Commandments are not moral laws, including the commandment against idolatry. However, if moral commands are also in regard to man's relationship with God, then all of God's commands are moral commandments.
                          "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            I'm not sure this can be interpreted as "The Mosaic Law has been abrogated." Any while Scripture doesn't use the 'moral law' category as such, the first council (of the apostles no less), determined that gentiles need not be circumcised in order to be baptized. So clearly as a Christian you're dispensed from those rituals, but all the other laws you're supposed to keep. Take usury for instance.
                            The Bible doesn't not list the process for how a Gentile is to become a Jewish proselyte. Even without Jewish literature, there was disagreement about what was required for a proper proselyte:

                            Yevamot 46a Our Rabbis taught: ‘If a proselyte was circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual immersion, R. Eliezer said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that our forefathers were circumcised and had not performed ritual immersion.’ If he performed the prescribed immersion but had not been circumcised, R. Joshua said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that the mothers had performed ritual immersion but had not been circumcised.’ The Sages, however, said, ‘Whether he had performed ritual immersion but had not been circumcised or whether he had been circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual immersion, he is not a proper proselyte, unless he has been circumcised and has also performed the prescribed ritual immersion.’
                            "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                              Do come back when you're less reactive.
                              It might help if you were less abrasive. All the unpleasant things you say could be better said without the nastiness.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                It's an invitation to come back when he is able to be rational.
                                You might actually try to be rational. There was no rationality in post #13, only venom.
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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