Israel and The State of Israel are not the same thing.

[Sparko]

OK, so you're pretty definitively a supersessionist, given that you've attempted no theological defense of the nation-state of Israel, you seem to be consistent in that.

That having been said, Leonhard raises a worthwhile point in that it's easier to see Christianity as replacing Judaism, particularly the Judaism that existed in the time of Christ, if we have concrete ways in which we maintain that Jewish legacy.

Also worthy of note in any discussion of modern Judaism is the fact that it is descended from the synagogue-centric tradition (identified, iirc, with the pharisees), since the the temple-centered saducees couldn't maintain their practices after the Romans destroyed the Temple.

Um, what?

But yeah, it's kinda hard to keep the old covenant if they don't actually keep it, which would include sacrifices. Any way you look at it, they are not following the mosaic law, and they don't have Jesus as their savior, so they are pretty much in the same boat as any other unbeliever.

[Sparko]

On that premise, do the Israelis have any special God-given right to the land?

don't know. God did give it to the Israelites while they were faithful, and I don't think there was a provision to take it away from them if they broke the covenant, but I could be wrong, I haven't studied that part of the OT in a while.

But it could also be that God wants them in that land for his own reasons, like to hold back the muslims. Or that he will one day graft them back in as Paul put it, and they will turn to Jesus. Romans 11.

[Paprika]

don't know. God did give it to the Israelites while they were faithful, and I don't think there was a provision to take it away from them if they broke the covenant.

"And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you."

“The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. ...If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book... the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul."

and so on.

[Sparko]

"And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you."

“The Lord will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. ...If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book... the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

And the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the Lord will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul."

and so on.

OK.

and it seemed like that is exactly what happened too. So maybe God has a reason for bringing them back. End times?

[Paprika]

So maybe God has a reason for bringing them back. End times?

Maybe. But how do you know God brought them back?

[Sparko]

Maybe. But how do you know God brought them back?

why I said "maybe"

But reading Revelation, it does seem that there is a nation of Israel in Jerusalem.

[Paprika]

Pap, would you be satisfied by the formulation that Jews are obligated to follow the Old Covenant insofar as they are reasonably able to?

Missed this. Yes.

[Omniskeptical]

The country the jews are currently referring to as 'Israel' is not Israel. No Christian ought to support The State of Israel, thinking he's thereby taking part in fulfilling a commandment of God.

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[Jedidiah]

Wasn't the land promise to Israel contingent upon a nationwide faithful following of the Mosaic law? I think it would be difficult to argue that this condition has been fulfilled.

It never has been followed for more than a generation at a time.

[Jedidiah]

The country the jews are currently referring to as 'Israel' is not Israel. No Christian ought to support The State of Israel, thinking he's thereby taking part in fulfilling a commandment of God.

Again I ask, what would constitute a "genuine" (?) State of Israel? You seem to be ignoring this question?

[Jedidiah]

Do I ever get an answer to this question?

[Spartacus]

in supersessionist theology, the reconstitution of the nation of Israel under a theological mandate is impossible because the Church constitutes the new Israel and the fulfillment of OT prophecies about God drawing all peoples to Himself

[Leonhard]

Do I ever get an answer to this question?

Sorry for missing this post from you Jedidiah, and for delaying. I had had been busy in other threads, but I noticed it two days ago and tried getting time for a decent answer, but I needed to think of one that wouldn't run on forever. Been busy as well, and some posts are easier to deal with. As you can see in the OP I'm stating an opinion, not sure of how the forum would react. I happen to consider modern Judaism to be a different religion than the Judaism at the time of Israel. The Talmud and Kabbalah were all much later religious developments, and as such when you think of Judaism at the time of Jesus, picturing anything resembling anykind of modern sect of Judaism would be a significant mistake.

If that could be bridged somehow, where you'd say that modern jews are somehow still Jews in that sense (I can imagine some arguments for that). You have the problem that Jesus opened the notion of Israel up to include even those Gentiles who'd undergo baptism.

There aren't two tracks of salvation out there: Judaism and Christianity. There's Christianity. If a Jew converts, they fulfill their Judaism, but a Jewish Christian isn't a superior kind of Christian in any sense of the word. In that sense Israel is never was merely a political state (if it ever was that), but is the People of Israel, which is The Church, basically where ever The Kingdom of God is, which Jesus explicitly stated wouldn't be in any particular location.

I opened the thread because I've always been bothered by the kind of religious support given by some Christians to the mere existence of the State of Israel, seeing it as borderline miraculous instead of mere secular political machinations. I've seen protestant forums were people pine for a reconstruction of the original Jewish temple and for sacrifices to recommence! Clearly there's something wrong about that.

[Jedidiah]

Throughout their history Israel has been in constant change. Periods of renewal alternating with periods of apostasy. Which of the many forms of "Israel" is the legitimate one?

[Leonhard]

Throughout their history Israel has been in constant change. Periods of renewal alternating with periods of apostasy. Which of the many forms of "Israel" is the legitimate one?

You don't deny that there's always been a remnant of Israel, even during their apostasies? But what is Israel to you? Is it a geographical location, or was that rather a gift given to the People of Israel?

As such I don't deny that the Hebrew were Israel from the point God declared his covenants with them, until Jesus came and they failed to recognise Him, from then on Israel has consisted of the Jewish converts and the Gentile converts.