The country the jews are currently referring to as 'Israel' is not Israel. No Christian ought to support The State of Israel, thinking he's thereby taking part in fulfilling a commandment of God.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Israel and The State of Israel are not the same thing.
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The actual biblically defined boundaries of the "original" state of Israel were much broader from a geography standpoint.
(And, yes, I have seen some modern Christians argue that this land needs to be turned over.)"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThe country the jews are currently referring to as 'Israel' is not Israel. No Christian ought to support The State of Israel, thinking he's thereby taking part in fulfilling a commandment of God.
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think we should support Israel because they are the only halfway sane country in the middle east.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostThat's for Civics. This is about whether there is any theological reasons to support The State of Israel.
I say nay.
But even granting as much as we can to the continuation of the Old Covenant (and disregarding the anachronistic application of modern nation-state ideas to a pre-modern society), given the fact that the Church has recognized the independence of the temporal (i.e. political) sphere, it seems that we should not use religious arguments as our primary justification for an alliance with a particular nation-state.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostHalfway sane by what standard? To the best of my knowledge, experts on International Relations don't have a great deal of trouble fitting the actions of various middle eastern countries into the rational actor model.
Before I address the theological question, there is one important point that must be settled: an common underlying idea under the political and theological questions is that the state of Israel is oppressed and victimised; while this was so at one point of time, it is clearly not so now. Israel has the strongest military in the Middle East, with at least a hundred nuclear warheads. It is technologically advanced compared to most of its neighbours and has one of the strongest economies in the region. It is absurd to continue to paint it as oppressed, yet there is much currency to be gained from playing the victim card.
Spartacus has made very relevant points about the distinction between State and people, so I will just address if the question if there are any theological reasons to support the Israelis: Christians do not have any special responsibilities to the Jews in general - have rejected their Messiah and a large number their God. What Christians do have is a special responsibility towards their own - the Body - and who are more persecuted currently worldwide, the Jews or the Christians?
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostBy Western standards. What Sparko means by 'sane' are actions, intentions and underlying beliefs comprehensible to a Western mind. Unsurprising, Israel would be the most 'sane' under such a standard. Trying to project alien Western perspectives onto Middle Easterners will only result in incomprehension.
Before I address the theological question, there is one important point that must be settled: an common underlying idea under the political and theological questions is that the state of Israel is oppressed and victimised; while this was so at one point of time, it is clearly not so now. Israel has the strongest military in the Middle East, with at least a hundred nuclear warheads. It is technologically advanced compared to most of its neighbours and has one of the strongest economies in the region. It is absurd to continue to paint it as oppressed, yet there is much currency to be gained from playing the victim card.
Spartacus has made very relevant points about the distinction between State and people, so I will just address if the question if there are any theological reasons to support the Israelis: Christians do not have any special responsibilities to the Jews in general - have rejected their Messiah and a large number their God. What Christians do have is a special responsibility towards their own - the Body - and who are more persecuted currently worldwide, the Jews or the Christians?
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Pap, I think you're attributing a (nonetheless) valid point to me which I do not think I made, or at least did not make as clearly as you suggest. That said, you seem to be endorsing a fairly strong form of supersessionism. The only theological (as opposed to moral/ethical) argument (that I know of) for support of the modern state of Israel in the context of strong supersessionism is the suggestion that the existence of the state of Israel is a prerequisite for the Parousia.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postsort of right. Most of the arab countries still act like they are living in the 1600's, with tribal fighting. They also tend to hate the west and try to destroy us, even though we are the largest consumer of their product: oil. They consider us "the great Satan" and want to impose Muslim law on everyone. Their mentality is conquer in the name of Allah. Left unchecked, they would do just that.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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I'm going to preface this by saying I'm aware there are massive human rights issues with the other countries in the Middle East and I don't wish to minimize them. I know Christianity is suppressed by most Muslim countries over there, and I condemn it. But that isn't my main point.
One of my main practical concerns with the attitude argued against the OP is that it may lead some to give a free pass to literally anything Israel does, or even to applaud actions that are considered human rights violations by most standards. Some Christians (nobody here to my knowledge) have even urged the precipitation of wars to hasten the end; obviously there is no theological basis for thinking one can control the timing of the parousia, and blessed are the peacemakers..."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostPap, I think you're attributing a (nonetheless) valid point to me which I do not think I made, or at least did not make as clearly as you suggest.
you seem to be endorsing a fairly strong form of supersessionism.
supersessionism-- that is, it depends on the belief that the New Covenant did not render the Old entirely null and void from then on.Last edited by Paprika; 04-07-2015, 09:01 AM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postsort of right. Most of the arab countries still act like they are living in the 1600's, with tribal fighting.
They also tend to hate the west and try to destroy us, even though we are the largest consumer of their product: oil. They consider us "the great Satan" and want to impose Muslim law on everyone. Their mentality is conquer in the name of Allah. Left unchecked, they would do just that.
They might be powerful, but their hands are tied. They are locked into a defensive position.
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