Messianic Jews & Philippians 3

[Scrawly]

Why should we think that practicing righteousness is any different from how God instructed it in the law? Or that the good that Christ compels us to do is any different?

Because we are under a New Covenant and we obey Jesus and His Apostles' teaching, as did the early Church. (Acts. 2:42).

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.’

Are you making the same mistake as Israel in seeking to establish your own righteousness and not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3)?

Why should we think that the Spirit is at odds with the Father and would lead us to do other than what He has commanded?

We follow the commands of Christ, the fulfiller of the OT, under the New Covenant.

The law is spiritual and a role of the Spirit is to lead us in obedience to the law

The Holy Spirit leads us to obey the New Covenant and the Apostle's teaching.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Romans 7:14-24 was Paul's experience as an unregenerate Jew attempting to live under the demands of the Mosaic law. Is this similar to your experience?

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Amen and born-again Christian's do exactly what the New Covenant demands, being constrained by the love of God; influenced by the grace of Christ; and strengthened by the blessed Spirit: Such persons observe and do the will of God willingly and cheerfully; from a principle of love; in faith, and to the glory of God; without any mercenary and selfish views; without trusting to, and depending upon, what is done for salvation.

Furthermore, where else do you think that Paul God the attributes that he listed in Galatians 5:19-23 but the law?

The attributes are the fruit of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

How could we be free from the law if Paul says in Galatians 6:1 that we should correct those who are caught in sin?

We are under the law of Christ. (Gal. 6:2).

I'm glad we're in agreement on this, but again, Christ kept the law perfectly and taught to keep the law both by word and example, so why should we think that faith that produces right living through continuous reliance on a pure and sincere devotion to Christ would be anything different from the law that Christ obeyed? The goal of a disciple was to learn to become a copy of their rabbi in both thought and in how they obeyed the Torah, so why should we think Jesus' disciples were any different? If we seek to be disciples of Christ, why should be consider his obedience to God's law unimportant to imitate?

Christ was born under the law. It didn't end there though, did it? The New Covenant spells out the implications of Jesus life, death, and resurrection and what the new birth entails and requires.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Yup imitate Paul's love and selflessness as the preceding verse indicates: "For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved." (10:33). Nothing about Mosaic law obedience, in fact the context is regarding the believer's freedom in Christ.

Romans 4:5 is in the context of doing works apart from faith in order to earn justification versus trusting in God's provision and living according to His will in the Torah.

Romans 4:6 disagrees: "just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works". The context says nothing about Mosaic law obedience.

I was not making a general statement about you or the people who argue against my position, but specifically about the author of the article you linked:

http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-...#ixzz3WDJvDUFM

"Such a view would contradict everything we learn from the balance of the New Testament (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15)."

Basically, they understood that Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but then they turned around an interpreted it "to fulfill the law" as meaning the same thing as abolishing it because otherwise it would contradict their theology. I'm sure there are many scholars over the centuries who have written much better articles and I would have agreed with them not that long ago, but I became convinced my position was wrong. I don't recall ever recommending Jim Staley. I've only seen two videos of his, both of which I disagreed with a number of the things he said. In fact, part of the statement of faith that I signed repudiates his position in one of the videos. However, arguments are not settled by who is waving around the most credentials, but by who is speaking the truth. I have no motivation to twist Paul letters, but rather I changed my position because I saw that it was not the truth.

See D.A Carson's exegesis of what Jesus meant by fulfilling the law.

I'm a slow reader and I have a reading list that's a mile long, so for the time being you'll have to present their arguments.

I'll try but it will only be a shadow of the substance.

There is more than one person with that name and at least one that has theological training.

I'm quite sure the individual you linked to is a professor of Mathematics and not a Greek grammarian. Oh he also has ties to Herbert Armstrong's WWCOG cult.

Clearly the author of the article has theological training, so I'm assuming they are the author of the article.

What makes you clear on that?

I linked the article because the author had a PhD, but because they made a solid argument for how Romans 10:4 should be translated.

Oh I actually agree that if one practices the law by faith, they will see the need for God's righteousness in Christ. I disagree with making a U-Turn as soon as the goal is reached - faith in Christ.

Cut with the credential snobbery and just read it. If you think they are wrong about anything, then make the case for it.

Sure, I'm not immune to being deceived and I'm pretty sure that at least some of things I hold to be true are actually false.

Same. However, it's important we get the gospel right, otherwise we are in danger of being accursed and eternally condemned. I strongly encourage you to read Galatians and Hebrews verse-by-verse without the aid of anyone or anything. Only ask in prayer that God/the Holy Spirit would illuminate your mind as you work your way through the two books.

Nevertheless, if you think that it is unimportant to follow God's instructions to His chosen people for how to live rightly

I don't believe that. I believe we are to devote ourselves to Christ and the teaching of the Apostle's under the New Covenant.

and worse, that it would be bad for them to do so, then you really should pause to reconsider your theology. Obedience was a important to God in the OT and it's no less important in the NT.

Mosaic law obedience is of the old order, not the new.

[Soyeong]

Because we are under a New Covenant and we obey Jesus and His Apostles' teaching, as did the early Church. (Acts. 2:42).

God's holy, righteous, and good standard didn't change, so again, I see no reason to think that Jesus or his Apostles taught anything in opposition to it, or else they would have disqualified themselves as the Messiah and Apostles. The New Covenant involves the law being written on our hearts.

Are you making the same mistake as Israel in seeking to establish your own righteousness and not submitting to the righteousness of God (Rom. 10:3)?

No, Moses was not leading his people astray. If Moses and any if the Israelites were declared righteous, along with Abraham and David (Romans 4:1-8), then it was by faith. Moses was just saying that they would live rightly if they obeyed God.

We follow the commands of Christ, the fulfiller of the OT, under the New Covenant.

A fuller understanding of the law against committing adultery includes not to think lustfully about a woman, so the fuller understanding that Jesus taught was inclusive with the law. If there is any differences between what Jesus taught and what God commanded, it is that what Jesus taught was stricter, but nevertheless still in full accordance with the law.

The Holy Spirit leads us to obey the New Covenant and the Apostle's teaching.

Which is in full accordance with the law.

Romans 7:14-24 was Paul's experience as an unregenerate Jew attempting to live under the demands of the Mosaic law. Is this similar to your experience?

We are set free from our sin nature's mastery over us and from its propensity to stir up sin in rebellion to the law. Nevertheless, the point remains that the law is spiritual and is in accordance with walking in the Spirit.

Amen and born-again Christian's do exactly what the New Covenant demands, being constrained by the love of God; influenced by the grace of Christ; and strengthened by the blessed Spirit: Such persons observe and do the will of God willingly and cheerfully; from a principle of love; in faith, and to the glory of God; without any mercenary and selfish views; without trusting to, and depending upon, what is done for salvation.

Yet, God has made His will known when He gave the law to Moses, so we should willingly and cheerfully obey it out of love and faith.

The attributes are the fruit of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

And were also are taken right out of the law.

We are under the law of Christ. (Gal. 6:2).

Which is how Christ taught to keep the law both in word and in action. Christ did not do anything apart from the Father and he said that not the smallest part would pass from the law and warned against anyone who would teach to relax it, so what he taught was in accordance with the law that God commanded.

Christ was born under the law. It didn't end there though, did it? The New Covenant spells out the implications of Jesus life, death, and resurrection and what the new birth entails and requires.

Which does not exclude imitating Christ in his obedience to God.

Yup imitate Paul's love and selflessness as the preceding verse indicates: "For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved." (10:33). Nothing about Mosaic law obedience, in fact the context is regarding the believer's freedom in Christ.

The freedom we have in Christ is the freedom to become slaves of obedience to the law (Romans 6:15-16).

Romans 4:6 disagrees: "just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works". The context says nothing about Mosaic law obedience.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Again, like Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul is making the point that we are justified by faith, not by works, but he is not excluding doing works in accordance with God's will as an outflowing of faith.

See D.A Carson's exegesis of what Jesus meant by fulfilling the law.

See my response.

I'm quite sure the individual you linked to is a professor of Mathematics and not a Greek grammarian. Oh he also has ties to Herbert Armstrong's WWCOG cult.

http://www.mundeleinnaz.com/rev-doug-ward

Enough with the genetic fallacy already.

What makes you clear on that?

I don't think anyone without theological training would have written like he did.

Oh I actually agree that if one practices the law by faith, they will see the need for God's righteousness in Christ. I disagree with making a U-Turn as soon as the goal is reached - faith in Christ.

No one said anything about doing a U-Turn.

Same. However, it's important we get the gospel right, otherwise we are in danger of being accursed and eternally condemned. I strongly encourage you to read Galatians and Hebrews verse-by-verse without the aid of anyone or anything. Only ask in prayer that God/the Holy Spirit would illuminate your mind as you work your way through the two books.

The problem is that you keep taking a criticism of a perversion of the law and applying it to God's holy, righteous, and good law.

I don't believe that. I believe we are to devote ourselves to Christ and the teaching of the Apostle's under the New Covenant.

Neither Christ nor the Spirit is in opposition to the law that God commanded, so the teaching is all in accordance with the law.

Mosaic law obedience is of the old order, not the new.

God's holy, righteous, and good standard didn't change and exist independently of any covenant to follow it. The problem wasn't with the Old Covenant, but with the people's disobedience to the law, so it makes absolutely no sense for the New Covenant, where God would write the law on our hearts and send His Spirit to enable us to keep it, that we should now feel free to disregard His law. Fulfilling the law made it all the more important to keep, not less.

[Scrawly]

Take care Soy.