Putting aside the fact that these churches are susceptible to potential government influence, which seems more than obvious to me (though I'm not sure exactly what sort of government guidelines these churches must follow and if anyone knows the specifics, please describe them here), but I'd like to here arguments why this doesn't violate Jesus' render unto Caesar and render unto God command.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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501 c3 Churches
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How does it violate this command? That hasn't been demonstrated."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Jesus is ordering Christians to pay taxes. He didn't say anything about tax exemptions from paying tributes to Caesar. It's pretty obvious why this is a bad idea, but I'm curious how churches specifically justify this --i.e. what are the downsides of paying taxes, or how does it lessen how the church functions, etc.
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Putting aside the potential downsides for a moment, I just want to focus on what Jesus said here. Jesus is ordering us to pay the taxes that we are obligated to pay. If for some reason (an offered tax exemption, for example), we are not obligated to pay a specific tax, there is no need to go out of our way to pay it. It's sort of like how in 1 Corinthians 7:20-21, Paul calls for slaves to be contented in their states, but mentions that if they do have an opportunity to legally gain their freedom, they should still do so."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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That's a very bad analogy, as it's just the opposite of gaining freedom from government. When a slave was free from his master, he was free from following the whims of his master. Tax exempt organizations are subjected to the whims of government because they must follow certain guidelines laid out by government, which is why I'd be curious to hear more about the specific guidelines of being exempt. Perhaps I need to do more research.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThat's a very bad analogy, as it's just the opposite of gaining freedom from government. When a slave was free from his master, he was free from following the whims of his master. Tax exempt organizations are subjected to the whims of government because they must follow certain guidelines laid out by government, which is why I'd be curious to hear more about the specific guidelines of being exempt. Perhaps I need to do more research."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostIt's not the very opposite as there is the freedom to do what one wishes with said money. If the guidelines were more stringent, I would have a problem with it but as far as I know the guidelines are not particularly restrictive as is. I don't have a problem with not endorsing political candidates as I do not believe this is the business of the church as an institution anyway (but that it certainly is of individual Christians).Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by seanD View PostPutting aside the fact that these churches are susceptible to potential government influence, which seems more than obvious to me (though I'm not sure exactly what sort of government guidelines these churches must follow and if anyone knows the specifics, please describe them here), but I'd like to here arguments why this doesn't violate Jesus' render unto Caesar and render unto God command.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostJesus is ordering Christians to pay taxes.
He didn't say anything about tax exemptions from paying tributes to Caesar.
It's pretty obvious why this is a bad idea, but I'm curious how churches specifically justify this --i.e. what are the downsides of paying taxes, or how does it lessen how the church functions, etc.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostPutting aside the potential downsides for a moment, I just want to focus on what Jesus said here. Jesus is ordering us to pay the taxes that we are obligated to pay. If for some reason (an offered tax exemption, for example), we are not obligated to pay a specific tax, there is no need to go out of our way to pay it. It's sort of like how in 1 Corinthians 7:20-21, Paul calls for slaves to be contented in their states, but mentions that if they do have an opportunity to legally gain their freedom, they should still do so.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostThat's a very bad analogy, as it's just the opposite of gaining freedom from government. When a slave was free from his master, he was free from following the whims of his master. Tax exempt organizations are subjected to the whims of government because they must follow certain guidelines laid out by government, which is why I'd be curious to hear more about the specific guidelines of being exempt. Perhaps I need to do more research.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostPutting aside the fact that these churches are susceptible to potential government influence, which seems more than obvious to me (though I'm not sure exactly what sort of government guidelines these churches must follow and if anyone knows the specifics, please describe them here), but I'd like to here arguments why this doesn't violate Jesus' render unto Caesar and render unto God command.
Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostHis followers didn't have the evil sinister IRS breathing down their necks.
But I do BOTH... I give money to the Church, and I give money to "Caesar". In fact, God only asks for 10% -- Caesar demands 37.5%
For one thing, I believe the Church (obvious exceptions) is a FAR better steward of money than the government is.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI'm not so much worried about who's a better steward, than about how this falls into conflict with what Christ commanded (I'm still not convinced with what KG argued) and worried about how much of an obligation the church now has towards government. How much of a chilling effect against church criticism or church dissent of government actions does this have with a church that pays no taxes? Where is that subtle line drawn? Another example is if they legalize homosexual marriage (and this is almost inevitable on a political level)? Are the 501 c3 churches now going to be forced to perform gay marriages? That's just one among a slew of examples of government obligation that has me concerned.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI'm not so much worried....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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