Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

501 c3 Churches

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 501 c3 Churches

    Putting aside the fact that these churches are susceptible to potential government influence, which seems more than obvious to me (though I'm not sure exactly what sort of government guidelines these churches must follow and if anyone knows the specifics, please describe them here), but I'd like to here arguments why this doesn't violate Jesus' render unto Caesar and render unto God command.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  • #2
    How does it violate this command? That hasn't been demonstrated.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Jesus is ordering Christians to pay taxes. He didn't say anything about tax exemptions from paying tributes to Caesar. It's pretty obvious why this is a bad idea, but I'm curious how churches specifically justify this --i.e. what are the downsides of paying taxes, or how does it lessen how the church functions, etc.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • #4
        Putting aside the potential downsides for a moment, I just want to focus on what Jesus said here. Jesus is ordering us to pay the taxes that we are obligated to pay. If for some reason (an offered tax exemption, for example), we are not obligated to pay a specific tax, there is no need to go out of our way to pay it. It's sort of like how in 1 Corinthians 7:20-21, Paul calls for slaves to be contented in their states, but mentions that if they do have an opportunity to legally gain their freedom, they should still do so.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          That's a very bad analogy, as it's just the opposite of gaining freedom from government. When a slave was free from his master, he was free from following the whims of his master. Tax exempt organizations are subjected to the whims of government because they must follow certain guidelines laid out by government, which is why I'd be curious to hear more about the specific guidelines of being exempt. Perhaps I need to do more research.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            That's a very bad analogy, as it's just the opposite of gaining freedom from government. When a slave was free from his master, he was free from following the whims of his master. Tax exempt organizations are subjected to the whims of government because they must follow certain guidelines laid out by government, which is why I'd be curious to hear more about the specific guidelines of being exempt. Perhaps I need to do more research.
            It's not the very opposite as there is the freedom to do what one wishes with said money. If the guidelines were more stringent, I would have a problem with it but as far as I know the guidelines are not particularly restrictive as is. I don't have a problem with not endorsing political candidates as I do not believe this is the business of the church as an institution anyway (but that it certainly is of individual Christians).
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              It's not the very opposite as there is the freedom to do what one wishes with said money. If the guidelines were more stringent, I would have a problem with it but as far as I know the guidelines are not particularly restrictive as is. I don't have a problem with not endorsing political candidates as I do not believe this is the business of the church as an institution anyway (but that it certainly is of individual Christians).
              Not endorsing specific candidates in the sermon (or official church documents) is pretty much the limitation involved. That does not hinder discussions outside of the sermon.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Putting aside the fact that these churches are susceptible to potential government influence, which seems more than obvious to me (though I'm not sure exactly what sort of government guidelines these churches must follow and if anyone knows the specifics, please describe them here), but I'd like to here arguments why this doesn't violate Jesus' render unto Caesar and render unto God command.
                Well, if my Church is subject to taxation, and I give money to the CHURCH, but the Church has to give part of that money to"Casesar", AND I have to pay taxes separately, then I'm really not doing an "either / or" (God or Caesar) -- I'm doing BOTH. (or... I mean... it's not a "clean" "either / or")
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Jesus is ordering Christians to pay taxes.
                  His followers didn't have the evil sinister IRS breathing down their necks.

                  He didn't say anything about tax exemptions from paying tributes to Caesar.
                  But I do BOTH... I give money to the Church, and I give money to "Caesar". In fact, God only asks for 10% -- Caesar demands 37.5%

                  It's pretty obvious why this is a bad idea, but I'm curious how churches specifically justify this --i.e. what are the downsides of paying taxes, or how does it lessen how the church functions, etc.
                  For one thing, I believe the Church (obvious exceptions) is a FAR better steward of money than the government is.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Putting aside the potential downsides for a moment, I just want to focus on what Jesus said here. Jesus is ordering us to pay the taxes that we are obligated to pay. If for some reason (an offered tax exemption, for example), we are not obligated to pay a specific tax, there is no need to go out of our way to pay it. It's sort of like how in 1 Corinthians 7:20-21, Paul calls for slaves to be contented in their states, but mentions that if they do have an opportunity to legally gain their freedom, they should still do so.
                    Yeah!
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      That's a very bad analogy, as it's just the opposite of gaining freedom from government. When a slave was free from his master, he was free from following the whims of his master. Tax exempt organizations are subjected to the whims of government because they must follow certain guidelines laid out by government, which is why I'd be curious to hear more about the specific guidelines of being exempt. Perhaps I need to do more research.
                      As is already being pointed out (and, admittedly this is changing) the Church is not prohibited (so far) from preaching against (or to) any issues, but cannot blatantly endorse specific candidates or political parties. I think this is why numerous organizations print "candidate issue" cards --- they'll print a list of candidates running for office, along with a factual account of how they voted on specific issues. Nothing wrong with that -- the congregant (it wouldn't let me type "parishoner" ) can make their own informed decision.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Putting aside the fact that these churches are susceptible to potential government influence, which seems more than obvious to me (though I'm not sure exactly what sort of government guidelines these churches must follow and if anyone knows the specifics, please describe them here), but I'd like to here arguments why this doesn't violate Jesus' render unto Caesar and render unto God command.
                        From the IRS publication on churches:

                        Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          His followers didn't have the evil sinister IRS breathing down their necks.



                          But I do BOTH... I give money to the Church, and I give money to "Caesar". In fact, God only asks for 10% -- Caesar demands 37.5%



                          For one thing, I believe the Church (obvious exceptions) is a FAR better steward of money than the government is.
                          I'm not so much worried about who's a better steward, than about how this falls into conflict with what Christ commanded (I'm still not convinced with what KG argued) and worried about how much of an obligation the church now has towards government. How much of a chilling effect against government criticism or church dissent of government actions does this have with a church that pays no taxes? Where is that subtle line drawn? Another example is if they legalize homosexual marriage (and this is almost inevitable on a political level). Are the 501 c3 churches now going to be forced to perform gay marriages? That's just one among a slew of examples of government obligation that has me concerned.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            I'm not so much worried about who's a better steward, than about how this falls into conflict with what Christ commanded (I'm still not convinced with what KG argued) and worried about how much of an obligation the church now has towards government. How much of a chilling effect against church criticism or church dissent of government actions does this have with a church that pays no taxes? Where is that subtle line drawn? Another example is if they legalize homosexual marriage (and this is almost inevitable on a political level)? Are the 501 c3 churches now going to be forced to perform gay marriages? That's just one among a slew of examples of government obligation that has me concerned.
                            I think I already answered the first part, and it's that last part that has me concerned --- it will probably end up the SCOTUS, because they would be forcing me to violate a sincerely held religious belief.
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              I'm not so much worried....
                              By the way... welcome back!
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by seer, 10-21-2020, 12:37 PM
                              2 responses
                              46 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Faber, 10-13-2020, 03:13 PM
                              4 responses
                              27 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Faber
                              by Faber
                               
                              Started by Christian3, 10-09-2020, 08:37 AM
                              33 responses
                              194 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Andius
                              by Andius
                               
                              Started by mossrose, 10-07-2020, 08:10 PM
                              6 responses
                              36 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post mossrose  
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, 09-26-2020, 07:50 PM
                              0 responses
                              6 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                              Working...
                              X