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Does the Lord's Prayer contradict sola fide?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:4, 5.

    ". . . In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10.


    ". . . to testify the gospel of the grace of God. . . ." -- Acts 20:17-27.
    Quote mining the bible isn't sound exegesis. For each of these I can find you statements that those who don't strive for holiness will be damned.

    This can't be settled with a "my quotes" vs "your quotes" discussion. The question is what kind of Christianity Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and James laid out.

    If you the Church Fathers they clearly held that one couldn't be a Christian and fail to perform works.

    Comment


    • #17
      Personally I don't think you can use The Lords Prayer as an easy slam dunk against Sola Fide. At most I think it displays a kind of tension, from my point of view, in protestant theology of how people come to be justified. I think the really problematic texts would be found in Galatians, 1st Letter to Timothy and especially James.

      Comment


      • #18
        There is no tension. What it does show is that there is more to forgiveness than just being saved from hell. That is something that tends to confuse the Catholics, as well as just about everybody else.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by footwasher View Post
          How is it that the Early Church Fathers do not teach salvation by faith alone, but rather, salvation by obedience to Christ's words, including the command, the inatruction, the law, to forgive?



          I assure you, these I consider great qualities, for the right situations!
          Obedience to Christ's words, yes. To Law and to grace.
          ". . . For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 5:20.


          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Quote mining the bible isn't sound exegesis. For each of these I can find you statements that those who don't strive for holiness will be damned.

          This can't be settled with a "my quotes" vs "your quotes" discussion. The question is what kind of Christianity Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and James laid out.

          If you the Church Fathers they clearly held that one couldn't be a Christian and fail to perform works.
          I hold the apostolic authority of holy scripture is to be taken as the finial authority. As for pitting the word of God against the word of God - that is not what works. Then there is the principle of not reading only the Bible verse - but its context. ". . ." And then there is the whole council of God (Matthew 4:4 etc).

          Then genuine gospel is hid to the perishing (2 Corinthians 4:3, 4). And the false teachers will indeed be judged by their works (2 Corinthians 11:15; Revelation 20:12; Romans 3:23).

          Law - forgive to be forgiven (Mark 11:26). Grace - we forgive because we are forgiven (Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 3:13).

          "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." -- Matthew 18:23-35.

          ". . . Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. . . ." -- John 15:15
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818
            Law - forgive to be forgiven
            I don't know whether to agree or disagree with you because I don't know exactly what you mean by "law," but James applies the principle to Christendom, too.

            James 2:12-13
            So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

            Comment


            • #21
              Here Paul talks about the efforts he is making to reach a desired result:


              1 Corinthians 9:26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


              Question


              Is he talking about a result that is to be tried for, with great effort, that is meant only for the super spiritual?


              Or


              Is Paul saying that there is a possibility that others, even the immature Corinthians , could succeed where he may fail?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                Here Paul talks about the efforts he is making to reach a desired result:


                1 Corinthians 9:26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


                Question


                Is he talking about a result that is to be tried for, with great effort, that is meant only for the super spiritual?


                Or


                Is Paul saying that there is a possibility that others, even the immature Corinthians , could succeed where he may fail?
                " . . . And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 9:25.

                ". . . If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -- 1 Corinthians 3:15.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  " . . . And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 9:25.

                  ". . . If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -- 1 Corinthians 3:15.
                  Why is Paul asking the Corinthians to master their bodies, isn't grace supposed to result in sanctification?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                    Why is Paul asking the Corinthians to master their bodies, isn't grace supposed to result in sanctification?
                    That one is one of the sanctified is the reason one needs to. (1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 6:11.)
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      That one is one of the sanctified is the reason one needs to. *(1 Corinthians 1:2; *1 Corinthians 6:11.)

                      1 Corinthians 1:2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours:


                      1 Corinthians 6:11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


                      If the Corinthian church was sanctified, why would Paul ask them to master their bodies?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The answer of course is that Paul uses the word to denote several different states, depending on the context. If I told a boring person to get a life, modern folk would immediately understand me to mean my words were a rebuke to him to leave his one track existence. A time traveller from the past would be confused, as the contexts he is accustomed to require him to understand taking of lives to mean killing! Similarly, Paul uses flesh, sarx in different ways in different places.

                        In your verses, Paul indicates the church has been separated from the world. The two other ways it can be used are:

                        http://www.gotquestions.org/sanctification.html

                        Quote
                        Sanctification also refers to the practical experience of this separation unto God, being the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life, and is to be pursued by the believer earnestly (1 Peter 1:15; Hebrews 12:14). Just as the Lord prayed in John 17, it has in view the setting apart of believers for the purpose for which they are sent into the world: “As Thou didst send Me into the world, even so send I them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth” (v. 18, 19). That He set Himself apart for the purpose for which He was sent is both the basis and the condition of our being set apart for that for which we are sent (John 10:36). His sanctification is the pattern of, and the power for, ours. The sending and the sanctifying are inseparable. On this account they are called saints, hagioi in the Greek; “sanctified ones.” Whereas previously their behavior bore witness to their standing in the world in separation from God, now their behavior should bear witness to their standing before God in separation from the world.

                        There is one more sense that the word sanctification is referred to in Scripture. Paul prayed in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “The God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Paul also wrote in Colossians of “the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the Gospel” (Colossians 1:5). He later speaks of Christ Himself as “the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27) and then mentions the fact of that hope when he says, “When Christ, who is our Life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with Him be manifested in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, total sanctification in every aspect. “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” (1 John 3:2).

                        To summarize, sanctification is the same Greek word as holiness, “hagios,” meaning a separation. First, a once-for-all positional separation unto Christ at our salvation. Second, a practical progressive holiness in a believer’s life while awaiting the return of Christ. Third, we will be changed into His perfect likeness—holy, sanctified, and completely separated from the presence of evil.
                        Last edited by footwasher; 03-02-2015, 02:16 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          An old acquaintance of mine who is now a Catholic seminarian posted a blog post asserting that the Lord's Prayer contradicts the idea of salvation by faith alone because it holds that forgiveness of others is a condition for one's own forgiveness.

                          I am curious what thoughts others here have on this.

                          http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/...asses-how.html
                          ## No contradiction. Faith alone is what gives access to the life of which the Lord's Prayer is a part.

                          His reasoning is like that of those who treat the mediation of the Saints as incompatible with that of Christ - theirs is a function, realisation & manifestation of His: He is the One Who is needed for access to them, who are in Him & and are nothing apart from Him. They are not a reality parallel to, or in contradiction with, Him, but are a result of Him. Somewhat as unconditional & absolute Predestination in Christ, far from preventing or cancelling or excluding or crushing human or angelic or any freedom, is its indispensable foundation & motive power.

                          So with Faith Alone OTOH, & everything in the life of faith to which it is he door & of which it is the indispensable root OTO. They are the fruits of Faith Alone, in that having it, is needed for having access to them.

                          Grace Alone is itself the source of Faith alone, since the Graciousness of God is the cause of all creatures whatsoever - because no creature had to be created; all come from the free & sovereign disposition of Almighty God to bring into being what had no being of any kind - not because He had any need of any thing, but that they might know & love & serve Him to Whom they owe all they have and are do & can be, without Whose all-ruling Providence they are & can be nothing.

                          Just my 2d.
                          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 03-07-2015, 02:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                            ## No contradiction. Faith alone is what gives access to the life of which the Lord's Prayer is a part.

                            His reasoning is like that of those who treat the mediation of the Saints as incompatible with that of Christ - theirs is a function, realisation & manifestation of His: He is the One Who is needed for access to them, who are in Him & and are nothing apart from Him. They are not a reality parallel to, or in contradiction with, Him, but are a result of Him. Somewhat as unconditional & absolute Predestination in Christ, far from preventing or cancelling or excluding or crushing human or angelic or any freedom, is its indispensable foundation & motive power.

                            So with Faith Alone OTOH, & everything in the life of faith to which it is he door & of which it is the indispensable root OTO. They are the fruits of Faith Alone, in that having it, is needed for having access to them.

                            Grace Alone is itself the source of Faith alone, since the Graciousness of God is the cause of all creatures whatsoever - because no creature had to be created; all come from the free & sovereign disposition of Almighty God to bring into being what had no being of any kind - not because He had any need of any thing, but that they might know & love & serve Him to Whom they owe all they have and are do & can be, without Whose all-ruling Providence they are & can be nothing.

                            Just my 2d.
                            How is it that the Early Church Fathers did not teach sola fide?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                              How is it that the Early Church Fathers did not teach sola fide?
                              http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xxxii.html
                              The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians

                              Chapter XXXII.—We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.

                              Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.130 For from him131 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.132 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”133 All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If you read Jerome's works Against Jovinian and Against the Pelagians, it is my opinion that he teaches some form of easy-believism -- except that he seems to add purgatory to it.

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