Should we observe Lent? Should we not oberve Lent? This extends to any liturgical fast I suppose; I don't think I've heard any reasons FOR except for 1. Self discipline, 2. Tradition. Both good things in my book, but for those who practice it, what does it necessarily entail? Fish on Fridays? No red meat? No meat at all? I don't know a whole lot on the topic. Are there any reasons not to observe Lent? I can think of 1. Rejection of tradition, 2. Rejection of things that seem "Catholic", and 3. Preference for other ways of fasting, and the first two of those don't seem strong at all. Liturgy and lectionaries are very foreign to me, and I assume those who know about Lent know about those so if you want to explain any of that I'd like that.
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Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Lent
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Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Daniel 7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
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Bookmarking this thread for later.
As one of the site's resident Papists, I'd be ready and able to discuss the finer points of Lenten theory and practice, but I'm about to head off for work.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Do what you like. It's not commanded by Christ but it isn't discouraged either.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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I think the primary issue with it can be that it takes on a heartless works-religious aspect. When people feel they must do Lent because its what they've been raised to do it, its expected of them, and they feel guilty for not doing it, it breaks down the whole reason for fasting in the first place. Fasting is done, not as mindless ritual duty, but as a purposeful way of taking the focus off ourselves and our circumstances, and putting the focus on God in single minded prayerfulness. Its a form of worship and mindfulness based in humility and self-sacrifice, and this is a thing that was lost on many of my Catholic friends while growing up.
There's also very specific instructions on how to fast recorded in scripture that are completely and utterly disposed of during Lent and Ash Wednesday. Jesus said, “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Declaring that you're going on a fast, and then putting a cross on your forehead with ashes on the first day to symbolize it is exactly contrary to what Jesus taught us. It's fascinating to me how often we see this within Christian history where we're very clearly told to do one thing, and then Christians do the exact opposite. I'm sure there are all sorts of theology and apologetics for why the practices of Lent is somehow different from those things Jesus specifically told his disciples not to do, but still it blows me away.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostFasting may serve that purpose, but to call Lent a "fast" is a real stretch."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Anyone wanna know what the assigned Gospel reading was this past Wednesday?
http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/021815.cfm
That's right, Adrift. We tell our preachers to explain the very reading you pointed out on the same day we all get the ashes on our foreheads. Though Lent is a visible and, on Ash Wednesday especially, a public practice, we are also reminded that (to put it pithily) it's what's inside that countsDon't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostColossians 2: snip
Daniel 7 : snip
Originally posted by Obsidian View PostFasting may serve that purpose, but to call Lent a "fast" is a real stretch.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostDo what you like. It's not commanded by Christ but it isn't discouraged either.
Originally posted by Adrift View PostSnip
Originally posted by Spartacus View PostSnip
As an aside, do we have any Protestants who use liturgy for worship or Sunday meetings, or is it just Catholics and Orthodox on this site who do? It's not that late but I've had a long day and am tired so I hope it works that I didn't reread anything I wrote...Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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Originally posted by Pentecost View PostI've heard complaints about the ash and after having read your link my following questioned doesn't feel answered: How is it different than what the pagans do? Isn't the ash meant to symbolize mourning? Or is it mourning for Jesus; so it's okay? I honestly don't know, please Sparticus Kenobi, you're the only Catholic who's responded so far, (and therefore my only hope of learning an RCC view of Lent.)
My earlier post was mostly directed at Adrift; the link was just the officially assigned lectionary reading for Ash Wednesday this year (which is to say, every third year-- we go on a 3-year reading cycle). His most legitimate point is that many Catholics are very poorly catechized, and I know no one who would argue with that point. Yet the fact that many Catholics do Lent wrong doesn't prove that Lent itself is bad.
Also noteworthy is the fact that the ashes are not given with any sort of congratulations, but with one of two fairly grim sayings: "Remember you are dust and to dust you shall return," or "turn away from sin and be faithful to the Gospel," in neither case is the recipient congratulated for their participation. The ashes are a sign of penitence and our need for Jesus.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by PentecostThank you for sharing the Colossians verses they have a clear relevance even without an explanation, the verses from Daniel are not the ones I would have expected
What would you call it then if not a fast?
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostAlso noteworthy is the fact that the ashes are not given with any sort of congratulations, but with one of two fairly grim sayings: "Remember you are dust and to dust you shall return," or "turn away from sin and be faithful to the Gospel," in neither case is the recipient congratulated for their participation. The ashes are a sign of penitence and our need for Jesus.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI don't think the issue is really that ashes will bring praise or congratulations. If the ashes are to remind us that we're nothing but filthy sinners, its still contrary to the command, "do not look somber".Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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I've looked at our Lord's warning as against "showing off" how holy one is being. So...having ashes on the forehead...could be like shaving your head for a vow, like Paul did in obedience to a law, or it could be a badge of what a good person you're being. Attitude counts.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostI've looked at our Lord's warning as against "showing off" how holy one is being. So...having ashes on the forehead...could be like shaving your head for a vow, like Paul did in obedience to a law, or it could be a badge of what a good person you're being. Attitude counts.
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