"Hmm"

[Sparko]

[phat8594]

Yeah, I have definitely seen this before....

I remember going to one church a while back where the pastor kept on saying 'Should the good Lord tarry' -- and I remember thinking "outside of certain Christian circles, I wonder if anyone else uses the word 'tarry' "

[Thoughtful Monk]

I don't know. but I dislike Christian "jargon" like that. It is very rare that God will actually speak to someone directly. Christians who routinely said "God told me..." make it sound like they have a hotline to God, and that is especially distressing to newer Christians who might think "Gee God never talks to me. What's wrong with me? Am I really saved?"

I agree. The people who I know and believe when they said God spoke to them all indicate it was a one-time event in their life. Jesus during the Incarnation was only addressed by God at best I can recall three times (baptism, another, and Transfiguration.)

Your last is also true for people who've been saved for years and God never talked to them.

[phat8594]

I agree. The people who I know and believe when they said God spoke to them all indicate it was a one-time event in their life.

Yeah, I have seen this, but I also know people (who I trust) who hear from the Holy Spirit often. They often know things that would simply be impossible to know, do things in faith that produce fruit that would seem impossible based on what they 'know', etc.

Jesus during the Incarnation was only addressed by God at best I can recall three times (baptism, another, and Transfiguration.)

I think this assumes the Bible documents every 'occurrence' of it and/or that the loud audible voice of God is the only way God speaks to people.

Jesus also says:


John 12:49-50
For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.


Now whether you believe Jesus had continued fellowship with the Father and the Holy Spirit during His ministry (and that He could commune with them, hearing their very words) or whether this was before His incarnation...that perhaps is another discussion....

There are also instances in Acts where the Holy Spirit speaks to believers, sends them out, etc. (of course, someone might ask whether this is merely descriptive of a rare event or whether it is descriptive of a common occurrence)

[Scrawly]

Yeah, I have seen this, but I also know people (who I trust) who hear from the Holy Spirit often. They often know things that would simply be impossible to know

Interesting. Can you provide an example or two that you find compelling?

do things in faith that produce fruit that would seem impossible based on what they 'know', etc.

Not quite sure what you mean by this, can you elaborate?

[phat8594]

Interesting. Can you provide an example or two that you find compelling?

Well my wife often hears from the Holy Spirit. She isn't some emotional person, but rather a rational thinker type (just in case you were wondering). So I see the fruit in her on the daily with many small things. However one more recent example would be when she recently felt God tell her to go talk to someone, pray for them, tell them some specific scripture, etc. To her (and me) it didn't make sense. We didn't really know the guy - and from what we knew, it didn't make sense..but whatever...you obey right?

So my wife ends up talking to the guy, saying what she needed to say and it turns out the guy was questioning a cult he recently got into, and so he prayed for guidance. I believe my wife was that guidance. She tells him some specific verses -- and just so happens to turn out it was the exact verses that somehow ('miraculously' by his words) showed up on his phone browser (without him looking for it). My wife was able to present the gospel to him, and got him to come to our church (which he loved).


Another recent one is more something that happened to a friend of ours. He was suffering from some weird liver issue; his body was incredibly itchy, and his liver numbers were way off. Doctors had him on some meds, but couldn't figure out what was wrong, despite continual testing. They all had 'never seen or heard of anything like this before'. So anyways, he ends up going to church one day (after weeks of going through this) and goes up to get prayed over. People began praying, and one guy steps up and tells him something along the lines of 'you are afflicted by a spear of adultery' -- ok..weird, right? -- so my friend says, "what's that?". The guy then quotes Numbers 25, and says something along the lines of "you are afflicted because of your adultery, you need to repent and you will be healed."

So my friend has never slept with or kissed anyone, or done anything like that. But what had happened is that he had committed adultery in his heart by openly flirting with a married woman, and fantasizing about what could be. She clearly liked him back and probably would have flat out committed adultery, but my buddy didn't let it get that far (but he did fantasize about it, no doubt). But...I digress. Point is that my buddy was convicted to the heart, right then and there - confessed his sin right then and there and repented of it. After he repented, he was healed.

And those are two more recent stories with more crazy outcomes. (there are many others that are much smaller).

Not quite sure what you mean by this, can you elaborate?

I shared the two stories above to help elaborate. We have seen people saved, healed, turn to repentance (from hidden sin), direct and specific answers to prayer, insight into situations, etc.

[Thoughtful Monk]

There are also instances in Acts where the Holy Spirit speaks to believers, sends them out, etc. (of course, someone might ask whether this is merely descriptive of a rare event or whether it is descriptive of a common occurrence)

Personally, I'll go with relatively rare. One has to be careful when reading Scripture to watch for the passage of time. In Acts 18:11 for example, it very easy to read past the time reference and not realize how much time the passage covers. Of course later in Acts, it twice uses the phrase "some time" (verses 18 and 23) to describe some passage of time. The Bible tends to describe the important moments in a person's life, not their whole life. I'm not convinced it shows the pattern of their life or what they did "off stage".

[Scrawly]

Well my wife often hears from the Holy Spirit. She isn't some emotional person, but rather a rational thinker type (just in case you were wondering). So I see the fruit in her on the daily with many small things. However one more recent example would be when she recently felt God tell her to go talk to someone, pray for them, tell them some specific scripture, etc. To her (and me) it didn't make sense. We didn't really know the guy - and from what we knew, it didn't make sense..but whatever...you obey right?

So my wife ends up talking to the guy, saying what she needed to say and it turns out the guy was questioning a cult he recently got into, and so he prayed for guidance. I believe my wife was that guidance. She tells him some specific verses -- and just so happens to turn out it was the exact verses that somehow ('miraculously' by his words) showed up on his phone browser (without him looking for it). My wife was able to present the gospel to him, and got him to come to our church (which he loved).


Another recent one is more something that happened to a friend of ours. He was suffering from some weird liver issue; his body was incredibly itchy, and his liver numbers were way off. Doctors had him on some meds, but couldn't figure out what was wrong, despite continual testing. They all had 'never seen or heard of anything like this before'. So anyways, he ends up going to church one day (after weeks of going through this) and goes up to get prayed over. People began praying, and one guy steps up and tells him something along the lines of 'you are afflicted by a spear of adultery' -- ok..weird, right? -- so my friend says, "what's that?". The guy then quotes Numbers 25, and says something along the lines of "you are afflicted because of your adultery, you need to repent and you will be healed."

So my friend has never slept with or kissed anyone, or done anything like that. But what had happened is that he had committed adultery in his heart by openly flirting with a married woman, and fantasizing about what could be. She clearly liked him back and probably would have flat out committed adultery, but my buddy didn't let it get that far (but he did fantasize about it, no doubt). But...I digress. Point is that my buddy was convicted to the heart, right then and there - confessed his sin right then and there and repented of it. After he repented, he was healed.

And those are two more recent stories with more crazy outcomes. (there are many others that are much smaller).





I shared the two stories above to help elaborate. We have seen people saved, healed, turn to repentance (from hidden sin), direct and specific answers to prayer, insight into situations, etc.

Thank-you, I appreciate you sharing that. I particularly find the gentlemen afflicted because of his adultery most interesting. Now, when it comes to your wife and hearing from the Holy Spirit, you state that she "felt" God telling her to do a certain thing. Would it be fair to say she has at times "felt" God telling her something, but it turns out she was wrong? Or has she been correct 100% of the time in these instances? If not, would it be fair to say that when she is correct she attributes it to the Holy Spirit, yet when she is wrong she attributes it to something else? If that be the case, how then can we ever truly determine when we are hearing from God on this basis - is it merely through trial and error?

[Pentecost]

Thank-you, I appreciate you sharing that. I particularly find the gentlemen afflicted because of his adultery most interesting. Now, when it comes to your wife and hearing from the Holy Spirit, you state that she "felt" God telling her to do a certain thing. Would it be fair to say she has at times "felt" God telling her something, but it turns out she was wrong? Or has she been correct 100% of the time in these instances? If not, would it be fair to say that when she is correct she attributes it to the Holy Spirit, yet when she is wrong she attributes it to something else? If that be the case, how then can we ever truly determine when we are hearing from God on this basis - is it merely through trial and error?

I've heard Heidi Baker teach that it's largely about trial and error during her interview in the Holy Ghost movie.

[phat8594]

Personally, I'll go with relatively rare. One has to be careful when reading Scripture to watch for the passage of time. In Acts 18:11 for example, it very easy to read past the time reference and not realize how much time the passage covers. Of course later in Acts, it twice uses the phrase "some time" (verses 18 and 23) to describe some passage of time. The Bible tends to describe the important moments in a person's life, not their whole life. I'm not convinced it shows the pattern of their life or what they did "off stage".

I think a case could be made based on the description of such events for both sides of the coin.

I agree about understanding the passage of time. I also believe that one has to be careful to understand that even with a historical narrative such as Acts, there is a purpose behind it, and that purpose (IMO) is not to document everything that ever happened. In other words, the historical narratives don't document EVERYTHING - just the events that the author deemed important. That's one reason why, for example, the gospels document different events (with some overlap).

So to assume that the lack of 'significant' documentation (more than a few instances) proves that the instances were/are rare is unfounded, IMHO. That beings said, the few instances that are documented, don't prove that the occurrences are frequent either.

So that would essentially leave it up to a coin toss or tradition for most people. I do believe, however, in prophecy - which I believe is divinely inspired utterance from the Holy Spirit. Since I believe in prophecy (and a frequency there of), I am more inclined to believe that the occurrences of people hearing from God aren't as rare as people may suppose.


So the question is whether it is frequent of not. Personally, I affirm prophecy as a gift for today's church that is not frequently exercised. Because of that I would lean more towards the idea that people hearing from the Lord is more frequent than some suppose.

[phat8594]

Thank-you, I appreciate you sharing that. I particularly find the gentlemen afflicted because of his adultery most interesting. Now, when it comes to your wife and hearing from the Holy Spirit, you state that she "felt" God telling her to do a certain thing. Would it be fair to say she has at times "felt" God telling her something, but it turns out she was wrong? Or has she been correct 100% of the time in these instances? If not, would it be fair to say that when she is correct she attributes it to the Holy Spirit, yet when she is wrong she attributes it to something else? If that be the case, how then can we ever truly determine when we are hearing from God on this basis - is it merely through trial and error?

I tend to say the word 'felt' simply because I don't want to claim some divine authority of infallibility that I have not been given. I don't believe my wife is infallible either.

I haven't really a circumstance that I can think of where she 'felt' God tell her something, and it turned out to be wrong.

I am sure that for many people, learning to discern the voice of God comes through trial and error -- it comes through listening and acting. I don't know if my wife ever approached it this way -- but nonetheless, from seeing it in action - it is pretty unbelievable.


Personally, I have been moved more directly by the Holy Spirit in my studying of Scripture. I have been moved for example to look at particular passages while reading another. (many times the other passage is also listed as a cross-reference in study Bibles)

[Scrawly]

I tend to say the word 'felt' simply because I don't want to claim some divine authority of infallibility that I have not been given. I don't believe my wife is infallible either.

I haven't really a circumstance that I can think of where she 'felt' God tell her something, and it turned out to be wrong.

I am sure that for many people, learning to discern the voice of God comes through trial and error -- it comes through listening and acting. I don't know if my wife ever approached it this way -- but nonetheless, from seeing it in action - it is pretty unbelievable.


Personally, I have been moved more directly by the Holy Spirit in my studying of Scripture. I have been moved for example to look at particular passages while reading another. (many times the other passage is also listed as a cross-reference in study Bibles)

Well, I have to say that this all seems to be quite murky to me. It seems that if the "voice of God" wasn't even involved in this sort of leading in the first place, then it would be almost impossible to ever discover that fact, if one utilizes this methodology of "trial-and-error".

JP Holding illustrates this sort of danger from the 40 second mark to around the 1:10 mark:

[phat8594]

Well, I have to say that this all seems to be quite murky to me. It seems that if the "voice of God" wasn't even involved in this sort of leading in the first place, then it would be almost impossible to ever discover that fact, if one utilizes this methodology of "trial-and-error".

JP Holding illustrates this sort of danger from the 40 second mark to around the 1:10 mark:

Well - I am not quite sure I see how the video discusses actually hearing the voice of God as a reality or not. To be sure, there are people who claim 'to hear from God' that clearly do not. Many people are led by their emotions rather than by the Spirit of God. Of course, many people are also led by their intellect as opposed to the Spirit of God. Both our emotions and intellect are fallible - while God is not.

But just as a question - what exactly seems murky to you?

[Scrawly]

Well - I am not quite sure I see how the video discusses actually hearing the voice of God as a reality or not. To be sure, there are people who claim 'to hear from God' that clearly do not. Many people are led by their emotions rather than by the Spirit of God. Of course, many people are also led by their intellect as opposed to the Spirit of God. Both our emotions and intellect are fallible - while God is not.

But just as a question - what exactly seems murky to you?

The part of not really being 100% sure that one is even "hearing from God" yet how one should "act" on that presumption regardless to discover if it is in fact God (even then it seems that if one turned out to be correct, it could be mere coincidence or another number of factors all that preclude God as being involved). The ability to "discern" the voice of God also seems to be a highly subjective exercise.

[Scrawly]

I would also add that indeed JP's video doesn't discuss actually hearing the voice of God, but what it does seem to illustrate is that if one is bent on "hearing the voice of God" then they will see God's leading regardless of what happens - once again highlighting the murky nature of this exercise of "discerning God's voice".