Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Slate article on lynching and Christianity - I'm not sure I buy it

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Slate article on lynching and Christianity - I'm not sure I buy it

    This article came to my attention today. It argues that the only form of Christianity in the American south in the early 20th century that did not see lynching as a Christian duty was the black church. I would just dismiss this out of hand, but the author cites a number of academics at fairly prestigious schools to make this point.

    I can't help but doubt this is factually true; I have no doubt it was true in many quarters (sadly), but can anybody more familiar with the history of Christianity in the US shed some light on this?

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._all_dt_tw_top
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Much like those who like to note that sadly to say some misused the Bible to support slavery while conveniently ignoring the fact that Christians were at the vanguard of the abolitionist movement the authors of this article seems to do the same with lynchings. The fact is that it was ministers and church members (and not just of black churches) who were at the forefront of the anti-lynching movement as several studies have reported such as one conducted in 1993 by William B. Umstead Professor of History, at University of North Carolina, William Brundage Fitzhugh. ("Lynching in the New South: Georgia and Virginia, 1880 –1930"). Another example would be from another UNC historian Jacquelyn Dowd Hall who wrote about the work of the devout Methodist Jessie Daniel Ames who founded the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching which opposed lynching on religious and humanitarian grounds (see "Revolt against Chivalry: Jessie Daniel Ames and the Women's Campaign Against Lynching").

    Further, as Robert Moats Miller, who wrote extensively on American Protestantism in the early 20th century, and noted that while a large percentage of those involved in the lynchings were evangelical Protestants there were also a significant number of instances of them attempting to intervene in order to prevent lynchings.

    To claim that "the only form of Christianity in the American south in the early 20th century that did not see lynching as a Christian duty was the black church" is definitely wrong.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      This article came to my attention today. It argues that the only form of Christianity in the American south in the early 20th century that did not see lynching as a Christian duty was the black church. I would just dismiss this out of hand, but the author cites a number of academics at fairly prestigious schools to make this point.

      I can't help but doubt this is factually true; I have no doubt it was true in many quarters (sadly), but can anybody more familiar with the history of Christianity in the US shed some light on this?

      http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._all_dt_tw_top
      I think the author is painting with an overly broad brush. She admits that some (white) church leaders condemned lynching, and the NAACP leader she quotes attributes lynching to agitation stirred up by hell-fire preachers. While white supremacists claimed to be acting in the name of Christianity, I highly doubt that all white Christians in the South were fundamentalist white supremacists.

      And I'm fairly certain that Woodrow Wilson was not a Southerner.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        but the author cites a number of academics at fairly prestigious schools to make this point.
        Actually he doesn't. The academics he cites connect lynching to Christianity but nowhere do they state that "the only form of Christianity in the American south in the early 20th century that did not see lynching as a Christian duty was the black church" or anything like it. The idea is bogus on its face. The document used to support it states some blacks were lynched for as little as bumping into a white woman. There is no primary source documentation for this as far as I can tell so it could just be more made-up liberal crap, but if we go with it, and if lynching blacks was seen as a religious duty by every white Christian in the South you'd get a lot more than 4000 lynchings over a hundred years.
        Last edited by Darth Executor; 02-12-2015, 03:21 PM.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #5
          I couldn't find the documentation either.

          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post

            And I'm fairly certain that Woodrow Wilson was not a Southerner.
            He was born in Virginia and moved to Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina. His association with Princeton usually throws folks off.

            Wilson was easily the most blatantly racist U.S. President ever. A Democrat, he has widely been praised for his liberal-progressive views despite being an unabashed hard core white supremacist. Before his presidency, Wilson headed Princeton University where he had been determined to keep the school body all white. In a 1904 letter he reassured a friend that, “the whole temper and tradition of the place are such that no Negro has ever applied for membership.”

            While president he tried to pass legislation curtailing the civil rights of black Americans. The previous Republican administrations had maintained equal opportunities for blacks in the Civil Service (the federal government, which had been, more or less, integrated since Lincoln). Those blacks that managed to get an education had no restrictions to their advancement.

            Things changed radically when Wilson became president in 1913. Blacks were not allowed to advance beyond the position of clerk, nor were they allowed to work alongside of white employees any longer. Additionally, he sought to keep non-whites from even getting interviews, by requiring that a photo be submitted along with any application for employment. Through his efforts the Democratic Party was essentially closed to blacks for an additional two decades and parts of the federal government were segregated through the 1950s!

            Furthermore, Wilson actively pushed for legislation banning interracial marriages in Washington D.C. The only time he met black leaders in the White House ended with him practically throwing them out of his office.

            Wilson screened the first feature film ever shown at the White House -- D.W. Griffith’s “Birth of a Nation.” The film was unapologetically racist and portrayed Wilson’s own view about white supremacy. Griffith interpreted the Civil War and Reconstruction as a horrible mistake that set the blacks free to prey on defenseless whites in the post-War South. After viewing the film, Wilson said: “It is like writing history in lightning. My only regret is that it is all so terribly true.” Wilson’s glowing endorsement was attached to promotions of the movie.

            His openly racist attitude is credited with rekindling of racism in America. The Ku Klux Klan gained enormous power during Wilson’s Administration experiencing a tremendous resurgence. Anti-black race riots swept the country and lynchings of blacks spread as far north as Duluth, Minnesota.

            In 1913, the NAACP publicly criticized Wilson because he officially introduced segregation into the federal government, and in 1918, after intense pressure by the NAACP, Wilson finally publicly condemned lynching – something the man who wanted a “just” peace settlement in Europe had failed to do throughout his presidency.

            While Wilson used to entertain himself and others by mimicking blacks in the White House by all accounts his wife Ellen was an even more racist. She positively adored telling “darky” stories portraying them as sub-human creatures and often as a menace that needed to be controlled.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              He was born in Virginia and moved to Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina. His association with Princeton usually throws folks off.
              Yep, that threw me off. He re-segregated the military too.

              The white South was a Democratic stronghold until, what, the early 80's?
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Yep, that threw me off. He re-segregated the military too.

                The white South was a Democratic stronghold until, what, the early 80's?
                Nope.

                The South was a Democratic stronghold until 1960. From 1964-1984, Republicans carried the South in 4 out of 6 presidential elections. Democrats carried the South in one presidential election (1976) and George Wallace carried much of the South (exempting SC and FL) in 1968. The "white South" movement from Democrat to Dixiecrat to Republican was well underway by the early 70's.

                Sam
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  He was born in Virginia and moved to Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina. His association with Princeton usually throws folks off.

                  Wilson was easily the most blatantly racist U.S. President ever. A Democrat, he has widely been praised for his liberal-progressive views despite being an unabashed hard core white supremacist. Before his presidency, Wilson headed Princeton University where he had been determined to keep the school body all white. In a 1904 letter he reassured a friend that, “the whole temper and tradition of the place are such that no Negro has ever applied for membership.”

                  While president he tried to pass legislation curtailing the civil rights of black Americans. The previous Republican administrations had maintained equal opportunities for blacks in the Civil Service (the federal government, which had been, more or less, integrated since Lincoln). Those blacks that managed to get an education had no restrictions to their advancement.

                  Things changed radically when Wilson became president in 1913. Blacks were not allowed to advance beyond the position of clerk, nor were they allowed to work alongside of white employees any longer. Additionally, he sought to keep non-whites from even getting interviews, by requiring that a photo be submitted along with any application for employment. Through his efforts the Democratic Party was essentially closed to blacks for an additional two decades and parts of the federal government were segregated through the 1950s!

                  Furthermore, Wilson actively pushed for legislation banning interracial marriages in Washington D.C. The only time he met black leaders in the White House ended with him practically throwing them out of his office.

                  Wilson screened the first feature film ever shown at the White House -- D.W. Griffith’s “Birth of a Nation.” The film was unapologetically racist and portrayed Wilson’s own view about white supremacy. Griffith interpreted the Civil War and Reconstruction as a horrible mistake that set the blacks free to prey on defenseless whites in the post-War South. After viewing the film, Wilson said: “It is like writing history in lightning. My only regret is that it is all so terribly true.” Wilson’s glowing endorsement was attached to promotions of the movie.

                  His openly racist attitude is credited with rekindling of racism in America. The Ku Klux Klan gained enormous power during Wilson’s Administration experiencing a tremendous resurgence. Anti-black race riots swept the country and lynchings of blacks spread as far north as Duluth, Minnesota.

                  In 1913, the NAACP publicly criticized Wilson because he officially introduced segregation into the federal government, and in 1918, after intense pressure by the NAACP, Wilson finally publicly condemned lynching – something the man who wanted a “just” peace settlement in Europe had failed to do throughout his presidency.

                  While Wilson used to entertain himself and others by mimicking blacks in the White House by all accounts his wife Ellen was an even more racist. She positively adored telling “darky” stories portraying them as sub-human creatures and often as a menace that needed to be controlled.
                  THAT was actually interesting. And news to me!
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Rod Dreher, writing for "The American Conservative" has also covered the recent study about Southern lynchings still being a living memory -- provocatively titling his essay "When ISIS Ran the American South:"

                    Source: When ISIS Ran the American South. Rod Dreher. The American Conservative. 2015.02.10

                    ISIS filmed that poor Jordanian pilot burning to death as an act of revenge and terror. We call those Islamist fanatics animals. But white people did this often, and sometimes even made a public spectacle of it. “The white men, women, and children present watched the horrific murders while enjoying deviled eggs, lemonade, and whiskey in a picnic-like atmosphere.”

                    In the EJI report is a photo of a 1919 clipping from a Jackson, Miss., newspaper reporting on a planned lynching in Ellisville, one that the Mississippi governor absurdly claimed he was powerless to stop. The paper reported that the Rev. L.G. Gates, a Baptist pastor from Laurel, Miss., was headed to Ellisville “to entreat the mob to use discretion.”


                    Oh, for the days when leading Christian pastors entreated lynch mobs not to stop in the name of God, but instead, to use discretion.

                    © Copyright Original Source




                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      Rod Dreher, writing for "The American Conservative" has also covered the recent study about Southern lynchings still being a living memory -- provocatively titling his essay "When ISIS Ran the American South:"

                      Source: When ISIS Ran the American South. Rod Dreher. The American Conservative. 2015.02.10

                      ISIS filmed that poor Jordanian pilot burning to death as an act of revenge and terror. We call those Islamist fanatics animals. But white people did this often, and sometimes even made a public spectacle of it. “The white men, women, and children present watched the horrific murders while enjoying deviled eggs, lemonade, and whiskey in a picnic-like atmosphere.”

                      In the EJI report is a photo of a 1919 clipping from a Jackson, Miss., newspaper reporting on a planned lynching in Ellisville, one that the Mississippi governor absurdly claimed he was powerless to stop. The paper reported that the Rev. L.G. Gates, a Baptist pastor from Laurel, Miss., was headed to Ellisville “to entreat the mob to use discretion.”


                      Oh, for the days when leading Christian pastors entreated lynch mobs not to stop in the name of God, but instead, to use discretion.

                      © Copyright Original Source




                      Thanks for sharing.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        Nope.

                        The South was a Democratic stronghold until 1960. From 1964-1984, Republicans carried the South in 4 out of 6 presidential elections. Democrats carried the South in one presidential election (1976) and George Wallace carried much of the South (exempting SC and FL) in 1968. The "white South" movement from Democrat to Dixiecrat to Republican was well underway by the early 70's.

                        Sam
                        In 1964 six states voted for the Democrat Johnson while five states voted for the Republican Goldwater[1].

                        In 1968 five states voted for Wallace (a lifelong Democrat who ran as an Independent and immediately returned to the Democrats), four voted for the Republican Nixon and one for the Democrat Humphrey.

                        In 1972 every state in the country (except for Massachusetts) voted for the Republican Nixon over the Democrat McGovern

                        In 1976 ten states voted for the Democrat Carter and one state voted for the Republican Ford

                        In 1980 ten states voted for the Republican Reagan with one state voting for the Democrat Carter

                        In 1984 every state in the country (except Minnesota) voted for the Republican Reagan over the Democrat Mondale

                        So you are wrong to say that the South ceased being a Democrat stronghold in 1964 and that the Republicans took 4 of the 6 presidential races there. The Democrats still were winning the presidential elections in 1964 and 1968 (the latter saw a split in the Democratic Party -- Wallace WAS a Democrat though he ran as an Independent) so it would be more accurate to say that it was a 3-to-3 split with two of the Republican victories being when virtually every state in the entire country voted Republican including states regarded as Democrat strongholds.

                        But presidential elections are hardly the only indicator. The South overwhelmingly filled Congress (both the House and Senate) with Democrats until things started to shift during the 1980s. The same thing can be said with state legislators.









                        1. Defining the south as the 11 states that had made up the Confederate States of America

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          Rod Dreher, writing for "The American Conservative" has also covered the recent study about Southern lynchings still being a living memory -- provocatively titling his essay "When ISIS Ran the American South:"

                          Source: When ISIS Ran the American South. Rod Dreher. The American Conservative. 2015.02.10

                          ISIS filmed that poor Jordanian pilot burning to death as an act of revenge and terror. We call those Islamist fanatics animals. But white people did this often, and sometimes even made a public spectacle of it. “The white men, women, and children present watched the horrific murders while enjoying deviled eggs, lemonade, and whiskey in a picnic-like atmosphere.”

                          In the EJI report is a photo of a 1919 clipping from a Jackson, Miss., newspaper reporting on a planned lynching in Ellisville, one that the Mississippi governor absurdly claimed he was powerless to stop. The paper reported that the Rev. L.G. Gates, a Baptist pastor from Laurel, Miss., was headed to Ellisville “to entreat the mob to use discretion.”


                          Oh, for the days when leading Christian pastors entreated lynch mobs not to stop in the name of God, but instead, to use discretion.

                          © Copyright Original Source




                          Of course ISIS has tortured and murdered more people in the space of a single year than all of the lynchings killed in a 50 year period. And I don't recall the systematic murder of women and children taking place during the Jim Crow era as well. Minor details I'm sure.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            In 1964 six states voted for the Democrat Johnson while five states voted for the Republican Goldwater[1].

                            In 1968 five states voted for Wallace (a lifelong Democrat who ran as an Independent and immediately returned to the Democrats), four voted for the Republican Nixon and one for the Democrat Humphrey.

                            In 1972 every state in the country (except for Massachusetts) voted for the Republican Nixon over the Democrat McGovern

                            In 1976 ten states voted for the Democrat Carter and one state voted for the Republican Ford

                            In 1980 ten states voted for the Republican Reagan with one state voting for the Democrat Carter

                            In 1984 every state in the country (except Minnesota) voted for the Republican Reagan over the Democrat Mondale

                            So you are wrong to say that the South ceased being a Democrat stronghold in 1964 and that the Republicans took 4 of the 6 presidential races there. The Democrats still were winning the presidential elections in 1964 and 1968 (the latter saw a split in the Democratic Party -- Wallace WAS a Democrat though he ran as an Independent) so it would be more accurate to say that it was a 3-to-3 split with two of the Republican victories being when virtually every state in the entire country voted Republican including states regarded as Democrat strongholds.

                            But presidential elections are hardly the only indicator. The South overwhelmingly filled Congress (both the House and Senate) with Democrats until things started to shift during the 1980s. The same thing can be said with state legislators.

                            1. Defining the south as the 11 states that had made up the Confederate States of America
                            Even allowing for a 3-3 split means that the term "Democratic Stronghold" is being misapplied. And since we're talking about a political and electoral revolution that has it's own name, I think it's more than fair to argue that the "white South" (not the South, even, but the "white South") was a Democratic stronghold through the '70s is misguided. The Southern conservative Democrats were being progressively turned into Republicans from at least 1964 onward. That's not a stronghold, it's a slow desertion. Placing the turning point much later in time diminishes exactly how much racial politics played into the change — in 1964, it became clear that the Democratic party was no longer going to be the one that preserved white power in the South and most white voters, slowly but surely, found a home elsewhere.

                            —Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Of course ISIS has tortured and murdered more people in the space of a single year than all of the lynchings killed in a 50 year period. And I don't recall the systematic murder of women and children taking place during the Jim Crow era as well. Minor details I'm sure.
                              Degrees of difference — not a difference in kind. That's Dreher's point (and he is no bleeding-heart liberal). ISIS should be condemned in the strongest terms but let's not kid ourselves that communities and folks in our own country (maybe even ourselves!) aren't capable of the same barbarity.
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Ana Dragule, 11-13-2020, 01:47 AM
                              2 responses
                              32 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post seanD
                              by seanD
                               
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, 11-11-2020, 03:18 PM
                              5 responses
                              49 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post Christian3  
                              Started by mossrose, 11-08-2020, 03:50 PM
                              1 response
                              29 views
                              5 likes
                              Last Post Sparko
                              by Sparko
                               
                              Started by Faber, 11-06-2020, 11:51 AM
                              1 response
                              5 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Faber
                              by Faber
                               
                              Started by DesertBerean, 11-02-2020, 02:57 PM
                              Working...
                              X