Originally posted by Rushing Jaws
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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A POLITE Discussion about Singing Angels
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIn that one, it appears they were "calling" to one another.
KJV - And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
YLT - And this one hath called unto that, and hath said: 'Holy, Holy, Holy, is Jehovah of Hosts, The fulness of all the earth is His glory.'
Darby - And one called to the other and said, Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!
HCSB - And one called to another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Hosts; His glory fills the whole earth.
The phrase is also translated as 'singing' in other verses: Ezr 3:11, Rev 15:3"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThe thing that bugs me is the statement, or belief, that after we die we will all become angels. I know this is not a Christian viewpoint but when my wonderful Grand daughter died so many words of consolation were of the sort; There is a new angel in heaven now. I did not attack anyone over it but sometimes I felt like doing so."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View Posthttp://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...=t_corr_685003
The phrase is also translated as 'singing' in other verses: Ezr 3:11, Rev 15:3The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Can we get too hung up on our definition of a word in a case like this?
Can "singing" also mean chanting, or reciting poetry, or sounding praise, even if there is no actual music involved?
I don't know, am just asking.
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If angels sings, its in a higher way than what humans can. They don't have any corporal form. They don't have lips or throats. So when the Bible talks about them singing, I think this should be taken by way of analogy. They do something that can best be likened to singing. The Bible is full of language like that, language that can only be taken as analogous, especially when it describes God having emotions.
That is not to say that Angels couldn't voluntarily give humans who are near them a proximate experience of what they're doing.
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What about Rev 5?
Are the 4 living creatures angels?
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[b] on the earth.”
Sounds like the four living creatures AND the 24 Elders were singing here.
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The four living creatures in Revelation 4,8 each have six wings and surround the throne of God, which seems to identify them as angels, presumably the seraphim mentioned in Isaiah 6, and in Revelation 5,9 these creatures are singing a new song, which probably also implies they were singing in Revelation 4, but, regardless, they are definitely singing in Revelation 5.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Great minds do sometimes think alike, Sparko, but I am hesitant to apply this aphorism here.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostCan we get too hung up on our definition of a word in a case like this?
Can "singing" also mean chanting, or reciting poetry, or sounding praise, even if there is no actual music involved?
I don't know, am just asking.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCAN be translated....."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSure, so I'm asking if there's any biblical support for angels singing in the sense that they are portrayed in all kinds of popular media, Christmas carols, etc...
Or -- "the prisoner sang like a canary" - doesn't mean he actually carried a tune.
All I'm asking is -- is there any biblical support to assume that angels "sing" in the sense that they are popularly portrayed as doing.
Presently the correct answer is 'yes, there is' because we've not done the hard translation work to know for certain that 'singing' is an incorrect translation.
My guess is this doesn't actually matter - the important thing with angels is to listen when they are acting as messengers of God."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhat about Rev 5?
Are the 4 living creatures angels?
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign[b] on the earth.”
Sounds like the four living creatures AND the 24 Elders were singing here.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOne of the USUAL responses I get is that the angels "sang a new song" - Rev 14:3, but.....
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
It was the 144,000 redeemed from the earth who were singing.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis was mentioned earlier...βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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