Who is a Christian?

[Jedidiah]

I agree with your view, however, my support would be derived from Scripture.

It has been argued from Scripture numerous times. I agree with you but since Pman is not a believer . . .

[Jedidiah]

I do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.

Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.

I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.

Well I am sorry you feel offended, that was never my intention. I stand by what I wrote, but I will drop it now.

[Jedidiah]

IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.

I agree with the concept of "being saved." I see it a bit differently though. I "was saved," I "am being saved," and I will be saved." Once you are in Christs hand you are there for good. No one, and nothing can take you out. The salvation event is just the beginning, but it is the beginning of something permanent.

[pancreasman]

Well I am sorry you feel offended, that was never my intention. I stand by what I wrote, but I will drop it now.

You might be misreading what I'm saying. I'm using the word 'horrid' because you used it. I find it mildly offensive and unproductive. The second part of my post was an attempt to put the shoe on the other foot and show how silly that sounded. I guess my writing skills failed to convey what I meant.

[Jedidiah]

Philippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.

Yes, to persevere in the life of faith, but not in salvation. If you have to work to remain saved, salvation is of works, not grace.

[KingsGambit]

Okay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation? Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn? Are we filled with the holy spirit each time? And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched? How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."? What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace? How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37, 1 John 2:19, and 1 John 3:6?

1 John 2:19 is one passage that I honestly don't know what to make of. At face value it does seem to speak against the possibility of apostasy; I remember a former TWebber trying to convince me otherwise but his exegesis didn't seem very convincing. I don't think Hebrews 6:4-6 refers to individual sins; I believe commentators are generally agreed that it refers to a decisive moment of apostasy (as Scot McKnight argues, there seems to be a sense of pride involved in the actions there).

I don't personally think there is a "limit" to the number of times one can repent, based on what Jesus said about forgiving our brother seven times seven if he genuinely repents. If somebody is trying to abuse this (like the European monarch in olden times who would sleep with a mistress everyday and then go see his confessor) I see it as evidence one is not clearly saved, but if one is struggling and genuinely trying I think grace still exists. (This was debated in the early church; the Shepherd of Hermas suggested that one could only repent of serious sins once after becoming a Christian; Tertullian thought even this was one too many.)

[Jedidiah]

That's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:

Source: Paul's Letter to the Philippians by Gordon D. Fee

That brings him finally to the imperative, what all of this was aiming at in the first place: "Work out your own salvation." This choice of language is predicated on his prior use of "salvation" in 1:28, which, he asserted, is "from God." But "salvation" is not only something they receive; it is something they do. A great deal of unnecessary ink has been spilt over this passage, as to whether "salvation" has to do with the individual believer or with the corporate life of the community [e.g. FF Bruce who believes it has to do with the community rather than the individual]. But that is a false dichotomy. The context makes it clear that this is not a soteriological text per se, dealing with "people getting saved" or "saved people persevering." Rather it is an ethical text, dealing with "how saved people live out their salvation" in the context of the believing community and the world. What Paul is referring to, therefore, is the present "outworking" of their eschatological salvation within the believing community in Philippi. At issue is "obedience," pure and simple, which in this case is defined as their "working or carrying out in their corporate life the salvation that God has graciously given them." That they must comply with this injunction at the individual level is assumed, and that their final eschatological salvation will be realized personally and individually is a truth that does not need stating, because that is not at issue here. In Pauline theology people are saved one by one to be sure (which is the point of discontinuity with election in the OT), but (in continuity with the OT) they are saved so as to become a "people for God's name." The concern in this passage is with their being his people in Philippi, as v. 15 makes certain ("that you may become blameless and pure, God's children without fault in a crooked and depraved generation").

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Exactly! I have been saved and now I must work out that salvation in my every day life (being saved). A truly challenging task.

[Cow Poke]

Exactly! I have been saved and now I must work out that salvation in my every day life (being saved). A truly challenging task.

As my wise old associate pastor would say - "you can't 'work out' what ain't in ya".

[Jedidiah]

You might be misreading what I'm saying. I'm using the word 'horrid' because you used it. I find it mildly offensive and unproductive. The second part of my post was an attempt to put the shoe on the other foot and show how silly that sounded. I guess my writing skills failed to convey what Meant.

And I apologize for that sarcasm. It was not only uncalled for, and unproductive, but was not really what I was trying to do. Again I am sorry.

[One Bad Pig]

Okay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation?

In my view, we don't lose our salvation; we're no longer attaining it.

Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn?

In a sense, once - when we first turn to Christ. In another sense, an infinite number of times - whenever we repent of a sin.

Are we filled with the Holy Spirit each time?

What does it mean to be "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched?

I'm fairly certain that occurs in the life to come (Luke 18:30).

How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."?

I think that's poking at the self-righteous.

What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace?

Good question. We need to square it in some sense with James 5:19-20. This may be a case of hyperbole to show the gravity of turning away.

How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37

I don't see how this is relevant; it refers to the actions of Jesus, not the person.

1 John 2:19,

I would not say that all who claim Christianity are born again. Was Simon Magus?

and 1 John 3:6?

I'm fairly certain that is polemic against those who believed that Christianity gave them a license to sin.

[pancreasman]

IMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.

[Cow Poke]

IMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.

Yeah, it's time for somebody to mention Hitler and bacon.

[Jedidiah]

Yeah, it's time for somebody to mention Hitler and bacon.

You win.

[Adrift]

What does it mean to be "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

Its when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer upon making Jesus Lord as promised by Jesus in John 4:16, and which seems to be confirmed in passages like Romans 8:9, Ephesians 1:13-14, and Ephesians 5:18.

I'm fairly certain that occurs in the life to come (Luke 18:30).

What part of that passage makes you believe that eternal life is something that occurs in the life to come? What are your thoughts about passages like John 3:36 which says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” where the phrase "has life" is in the present tense, and where we find similar present tense constructions in John 5:24 and John 6:47?

Good question. We need to square it in some sense with James 5:19-20. This may be a case of hyperbole to show the gravity of turning away.

I think it squares rather well. James 5:19-20 doesn't seem to indicate that once one finally does apostate, that they can be redeemed. He's dead Jim!

I don't see how this is relevant; it refers to the actions of Jesus, not the person.

I think it demonstrates how hardy salvation is once received. Once one is saved, Christ doesn't seem to be in the habit of shooing those away if and when they fall.

I would not say that all who claim Christianity are born again. Was Simon Magus?

That's pretty much my point.

[Adrift]

IMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.

It doesn't seem odd at all. The apostate has, in a way, shown their hand. While it may be nigh impossible to figure out who belongs to Christ based purely on their denominational, doctrinal, or theological views, the one who has said "I do not accept Christ" makes things rather easy. For some Christians there can only be a few options on the table (1) The apostate was never truly in Christ to begin with (2) The individual is still in Christ but badly backslidden, but, like the Prodigal Son, will come back to reclaim his inheritance, or (3) The Christian has done the truly unthinkable and committed the Unforgivable Sin, which I think is probably extremely rare. There are some who believe it cannot even be committed post-Jesus' death and resurrection.