Who is a Christian?

[footwasher]

None of this addresses my post in any way; it ignores it in favor of pushing your own private interpretation.

If a single desire of the flesh remains, your entire body is going to be burned:

Matthew 5:30"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

[One Bad Pig]

If a single desire of the flesh remains, your entire body is going to be burned:

Matthew 5:30"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

...which is your private interpretation. With your criteria, no one would be saved. Pretending your sinful nature is not there does not make it go away.

[KingsGambit]

Actually sanctification precedes our faith in Christ. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

It seems to me that all we can conclude from 1 Peter 1:2 is that God knows ahead of time who will be saved.

[Leonhard]

Who is a Christian? That's going to be a discussion about who can be properly assigned the term 'Christian', this can broader or narrower, depending on the context.

The real question is who Jesus considers to be His friends on Earth.

[Paprika]

The real question is who Jesus considers to be His friends on Earth.

We're not the heart-searcher. However, one important question is who we should consider as Christians, because Christians owe each other mutual responsibilities due to being part of one Body.

[footwasher]

...which is your private interpretation. With your criteria, no one would be saved. Pretending your sinful nature is not there does not make it go away.

That's right, my views, presented in bits, now to put them together.

Paul says those who have switched loyalty to Christ have had their spirits revived, towards sitting with Him in high places:

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Those who put to death the deeds of the body will have their bodies revived, made alive, as well, and be able to function in a heavenly treasure earning mode, inheriting mode:

Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


He beats his body so that even while helping others to succeed he himself should not lose the prize, eternal living,the making alive of the body through putting to death its deeds by the Spirit:

1 Corinthians 9:27but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

That mode of living is the empowerment to share in Christ's suffering, possible only by being co heirs with Christ, through being found sinless:

1 Peter4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Towards being an unblemished offering:

Philippians 2:17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

One weakness continues to plague him. He prays to God to deliver him from this oppression and God tells him that His grace is sufficient for him, weakness becomes an advantage:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

This highlights two issues:

As long as we identify our sins through confessing to one another and putting ourselves under accountability, we have a correct and Scriptural horizontal relationship with our fellow believers.

James 5:16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

As long as the Spirit is not grieved through denying His conviction, His revelation of our hidden sins, we are IN good standing, in correct and Scriptural vertical relationship, with God.

We must not deny our sin, but must continue to acknowledge they exist, so that God can cleanse us:

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[One Bad Pig]

That's right, my views, presented in bits, now to put them together.

Paul says those who have switched loyalty to Christ have had their spirits revived, towards sitting with Him in high places:

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Those who put to death the deeds of the body will have their bodies revived, made alive, as well, and be able to function in a heavenly treasure earning mode, inheriting mode:

Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


He beats his body so that even while helping others to succeed he himself should not lose the prize, eternal living,the making alive of the body through putting to death its deeds by the Spirit:

1 Corinthians 9:27but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

That mode of living is the empowerment to share in Christ's suffering, possible only by being co heirs with Christ, through being found sinless:

1 Peter4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Towards being an unblemished offering:

Philippians 2:17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

One weakness continues to plague him. He prays to God to deliver him from this oppression and God tells him that His grace is sufficient for him, weakness becomes an advantage:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

This highlights two issues:

As long as we identify our sins through confessing to one another and putting ourselves under accountability, we have a correct and Scriptural horizontal relationship with our fellow believers.

James 5:16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

As long as the Spirit is not grieved through denying His conviction, His revelation of our hidden sins, we are IN good standing, in correct and Scriptural vertical relationship, with God.

We must not deny our sin, but must continue to acknowledge they exist, so that God can cleanse us:

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Generally correct, but relatively few suffer in the flesh as Christ suffered (though in my experience, those who have been tortured for the sake of Christ and remained steadfast are indeed holy). I also think Paul would disagree with your assessment that he was perfect except for that one weakness.

[footwasher]

Generally correct, but relatively few suffer in the flesh as Christ suffered (though in my experience, those who have been tortured for the sake of Christ and remained steadfast are indeed holy). I also think Paul would disagree with your assessment that he was perfect except for that one weakness.

Could it be that Paul's weakness is a stammer, like Moses, who needed Aaron to speak for him?

Paul believes he has the authority to be a source of living waters, words of eternal life, not by being perfect:

2 Corinthians 10:10For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.”

but by being sealed with God’s seal:

2 Corinthians 4: 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

It could mean that suffering is a sign that one has put to death the desire for self preservation, shrinking back. Intriguing...

[One Bad Pig]

Could it be that Paul's weakness is a stammer, like Moses, who needed Aaron to speak for him?

If it were important, I'm sure it would have been recorded. Moses didn't need Aaron to speak for him; Moses was using his speech impediment as an excuse, and God called him on it.

Paul believes he has the authority to be a source of living waters, words of eternal life, not by being perfect:

2 Corinthians 10:10For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.”

but by being sealed with God’s seal:

2 Corinthians 4: 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

Eh, I would say conduit rather than source.

It could mean that suffering is a sign that one has put to death the desire for self preservation, shrinking back. Intriguing...

Suffering might be brought about because love for the cause for which one suffers is greater than the desire for self-preservation, but that is not the only cause of suffering.

[footwasher]

Now let's recap.

For a long time, salvation has been viewed as a scenario of believing in Christ, receiving His righteousness through imputation, being saved, bearing fruit, this confirming that the belief is genuine and then waiting for the resurrection of our bodies, towards full enjoyment of heaven.

This scenario misses out a very important element. Where does the promise to Abraham that his seed would be a blessing to the whole world come in?

Is this taken care of by the fact that the term fruit covers deeds that result in other people turning to God? Is this the extent of how we can be blessings to the world?

How about this alternative scenario:


Salvation can be viewed as a scenario of believing in Christ, as in believing in an ideology, a worldview, repentance, turning from working for superficial temporary treasure by serving self to working for substantive permanent (eternal!) treasure by serving God. Resulting in receiving the Holy Spirit which makes possible the task, formerly not possible, because of the weakness of the flesh, of serving God. Enabled by the Spirit, believers are empowered to pass training and testing, strange trials, suffering sent by God, to demonstrate His ability to help in the future task.


Now, the task of being a blessing to the world is given, denoted in Scripture by the term "call". This involves preaching Christ and His crucifixion, a foolish message, guaranteed to bring on persecution, as shown by the suffering endured by the Apostles. God showing His confirmation of the message through signs and wonders, what Paul calls the power of the Gospel, which he does not want to rob it off, by substituting it with high philosophy.


Let's keep in mind that this courageous task has been made possible by the giving of the Spirit.


Let's also remember that this is an active work of God, His faithful keeping of His Covenantal promise.


Through the sacrifice of His Son as a sin offering, Paul has been given the Holy Spirit, resulting in becoming the embodiment of God's covenantal faithfulness.


Now he has become a source of life giving, "living" waters, of words of life, through surviving murderous attacks on his life, bearing marks of those attacks, confirming his ambassadorship of God's message.


Those marks rather than being a demerit, are now buttressing his message, giving it more credibility, towards life giving action for his hearers, and death for him, interestingly towards a better resurrection for him.


http://www.google.co.in/search?q=2+c...EIixuASQh4DgBg


Quote

Th i r d , t h i s r e a d i n g o f 5 : 2 1 h a s t i e d i t i n q u i t e t i g h t l y , I t h i n k , t o t h e w h o l e a r g u m e n t o f c h a p s . 3- 5 . T h i s s u g g e s t s t o m e t h a t , a l t h o u g h o f c o u r s e t h e f i r s t h a l f o f c h a p . 6 g r o w s o r g a n i c a l l y o u t o f j u s t t h i s c o n c l u s i o n , i t i s m i s l e a d i n g t o t r e a t 5 : 1 9 a s t h o u g h i t w e r e t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e l o n g p r e c e d i n g a r g u m e n t a n d 5 : 2 0 a s t h o u g h i t w e r e t h e s t a r t o f t h e n e w o n e . W h e n i t i s r e a d i n t h e w a y I h a v e s u g g e s t e d , 5 : 2 0- 2 1 f o r m s t h e n a t u r a l c l i m a x t o t h e e n t i r e a r g u m e n t o f t h e p r e c e d i n g t h r e e c h a p t e r s , w i t h 6 : 1 b e i n g t h e p o i n t w h e r e P a u l t u r n s t o a d d r e s s a s p e c i f i c a p p e a l t o t h e C o r i n t h i a n s . T h e y h a v e , a f t e r a l l , a l r e a d y b e e n r e c o n c i l e d t o G o d ( 5 : 2 0 ) ; 1 5 n o w t h e y n e e d t o b e u r g e d n o t t o r e c e i v e t h i s g r a c e i n v a i n ( 6 : 1 ) . M o r e o v e r , t h e y n o w h a v e a s i g n i f i c a n t n e w m o t i v e t o h e e d t h i s a p p e a l : t h e o n e w h o s p e a k s i s n o t s i m p l y a n o d d , s h a b b y , b a t t l e- s c a r r e d j a i l b i r d , b u t o n e w h o , h o w e v e r s u r p r i s i n g l y , i s a r e v e l a t i o n i n p e r s o n o f t h e c o v e n a n t f a i t h f u l n e s s 'o f G o d .

[Cow Poke]

Th i r d , *t h i s *r e a d i n g *o f *5 : 2 1 *h a s *t i e d *i t *i n *q u i t e *t i g h t l y , *I *t h i n k , *t o *t h e *w h o l e *a r g u m e n t *o f *c h a p s . *3- 5 . **T h i s *s u g g e s t s *t o *m e *t h a t , *a l t h o u g h *o f *c o u r s e *t h e *f i r s t *h a l f *o f *c h a p . *6 *g r o w s *o r g a n i c a l l y *o u t *o f *j u s t *t h i s *c o n c l u s i o n , *i t *i s *m i s l e a d i n g *t o *t r e a t *5 : 1 9 *a s *t h o u g h *i t *w e r e *t h e *c o n c l u s i o n *o f *t h e *l o n g *p r e c e d i n g *a r g u m e n t *a n d *5 : 2 0 *a s *t h o u g h *i t *w e r e *t h e *s t a r t *o f *t h e *n e w *o n e . **W h e n *i t *i s *r e a d *i n *t h e *w a y *I *h a v e *s u g g e s t e d , *5 : 2 0- 2 1 *f o r m s *t h e *n a t u r a l *c l i m a x *t o *t h e *e n t i r e *a r g u m e n t *o f *t h e *p r e c e d i n g *t h r e e *c h a p t e r s , *w i t h *6 : 1 *b e i n g *t h e *p o i n t *w h e r e *P a u l *t u r n s *t o *a d d r e s s *a *s p e c i f i c *a p p e a l *t o *t h e *C o r i n t h i a n s . **T h e y *h a v e , *a f t e r *a l l , *a l r e a d y *b e e n *r e c o n c i l e d *t o *G o d *( 5 : 2 0 ) ; 1 5 *n o w *t h e y *n e e d *t o *b e *u r g e d *n o t *t o *r e c e i v e *t h i s *g r a c e *i n *v a i n *( 6 : 1 ) . **M o r e o v e r , *t h e y *n o w *h a v e *a *s i g n i f i c a n t *n e w *m o t i v e *t o *h e e d *t h i s *a p p e a l : *t h e *o n e *w h o *s p e a k s *i s *n o t *s i m p l y *a n *o d d , *s h a b b y , *b a t t l e- s c a r r e d *j a i l b i r d , *b u t *o n e *w h o , *h o w e v e r *s u r p r i s i n g l y , *i s *a *r e v e l a t i o n *i n *p e r s o n *o f *t h e *c o v e n a n t *f a i t h f u l n e s s *o f *G o d .

If you stare at that kinda cross-eyed you can see a picture of the Virgin Mary!

[footwasher]

If you stare at that kinda cross-eyed you can see a picture of the Virgin Mary!

Have a heart , Chappie, I lent my laptop to a friend. Doing this on a smartphone is TORTURE!

[Cow Poke]

Have a heart , Chappie, I lent my laptop to a friend. Doing this on a smartphone is TORTURE!

When you get back on a computer, stare at that block of text til you see the picture.

[Leonhard]

What footwasher meant to write.

"Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to "be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). More over, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jail bird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faith fullness of God."

[Rushing Jaws]

I used to be pretty black-n-white about this. I would say "there are only two kinds of people in the world - saved and lost" or "it's like being pregnant - you either are or you're not". An absolute binary dichotomy.

I heard Paul Little though propose another possibility -- "those who are still on the way". His point was that this gives an opportunity, when witnessing, to leave the door open to somebody who hasn't accepted Christ, but may be contemplating it. Instead of "pigeonholing" them into a "saved or lost" category, show them that it's a journey, and help them to figure out where they are on that journey.

I think a number of us have talked about the aspects of salvation -- I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved....

But occasionally I see somebody say "[whatever denomination] are not Christians".

As I pointed out in a different thread (that inspired this one) I don't like to declare people "not Christians" because they align themselves with a certain group or religion or denomination. They may well be there out of ignorance, or because they were born into that, or because they're the spouse or dependent of somebody who's in that denomination.

I can only "know" that you (or anybody else) is "saved" by your testimony and your fruit, but only God knows your heart. Therefore, even in Pastoring, I try NEVER to assume that somebody is "saved" just because they're a deacon in my Church, or have been there "forever", or was "born in the Church nursery".

One of my favorite sayings is "if a cat climbed into an oven and gave birth to kittens, would we call them muffins?"

So, I guess the thread title should really be "who are WE to say who's a Christian and who's not".

## STM that "being Christian" admits of countless degrees. Does the question mean "What beliefs count as Christian ?" IMHO, it is God's business, not ours (unless in a provisional & hesitant way) to say who is Christian. If a Mormon is more responsive to God's grace than a Catholic or a Calvinist or a Mennonite, our theologies need to take account of such things, rather than dictating to God whom He is to bless, & how.

The question seems to assume that the Christian life is static & changeless - but the NT often uses the language of growth, which is dynamic, not static. And maybe one needs to ask "Christian for what purpose ?" - failings that are tolerable in a Christian child, are less easily tolerable in a pastor. And the question seems not to allow for the action of the Holy Spirit over a period of time - someone who may be unChristian at a given moment, can change for the better, or the worse; and change back. God is constant - are we ?