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What Is TWeb's Thoughts on Charismatic Christianity

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    In your hurry to poke me, you missed the thrust of my intent.
    Oh come on, your post was begging for a silly response.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      I don't agree that that's the case. I think Oneness Pentecostalism is heretical, but I believe most Oneness Pentecostals are naively ignorant about the Trinity. Megachurch Bishop T.D. Jakes, for instance, moved away from Oneness Pentecostalism after examining the traditional doctrine on the Trinity, and finding he agreed with it. The Trinity is a notoriously complicated concept to grasp within and without Christianity (probably second only to the debate on the nature of Christ), and was responsible for splits in the church from very early on. I have a hard time believing that everyone who's fallen into the heresy of modalism is not a Christian.
      I'm quite open to the idea that most Christians who belong to Oneness Pentacostalism are so thoroughly ungrounded that its hard to judge whether they really openly reject the Christian dogma, or whether they're simple ignorant of it.

      That's why Catholics distinguish between material heresy and formal heresy, however there's no doubt that Oneness Pentacostals teach heresy on multiple levels. All Christians should agree that their denial of the Trinity is a serious, and very heinous kind of heresy.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Just out of curiosity Leo.. what language do angels speak to each other? Hebrew? Greek? English?
        I think you'd have to ask Charismatic Christians what kind of language they imagine they're speaking when they're lollygapping their way through a hyper-emotional prayer session. Its definitely not any human language. If its any kind of language, its some kind of babynoise-ish repetitive babble consisting of the same few words over and over again.

        If you're talking about what theologians consider angels to use, they don't use any kind of language. They don't need a medium as such to communicate intention with each other.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Yeah, I never like declaring somebody "not Christian" based on the group or denomination they align with, anymore than I would declare somebody "Christian" for the same reason.
          The most basic kind of heresy a "Christian" person can commit, is the heresy of denying Trinity.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            I think you'd have to ask Charismatic Christians what kind of language they imagine they're speaking when they're lollygapping their way through a hyper-emotional prayer session. Its definitely not any human language. If its any kind of language, its some kind of babynoise-ish repetitive babble consisting of the same few words over and over again.

            If you're talking about what theologians consider angels to use, they don't use any kind of language. They don't need a medium as such to communicate intention with each other.
            But they do speak and sing, so assuming they don't have their own language with each other is an argument from silence.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              The most basic kind of heresy a "Christian" person can commit, is the heresy of denying Trinity.
              OK, I'm not making myself clear. I think it's possible for a Christian to get "mixed up with" one of these other outfits, maybe because they don't understand what they teach. If the accept the doctrines, or actively deny the Trininty - that's a different thing.

              I don't think we can assume that just because somebody wears a denominational tag that he accepts all that denomination teaches.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                But they do speak and sing, so assuming they don't have their own language with each other is an argument from silence.
                Angels sing?
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Angels sing?
                  Job 38:7
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Job 38:7
                    Interesting - can we take this to another thread?
                    Last edited by Cow Poke; 02-09-2015, 03:26 PM.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I'm quite open to the idea that most Christians who belong to Oneness Pentacostalism are so thoroughly ungrounded that its hard to judge whether they really openly reject the Christian dogma, or whether they're simple ignorant of it.

                      That's why Catholics distinguish between material heresy and formal heresy, however there's no doubt that Oneness Pentacostals teach heresy on multiple levels. All Christians should agree that their denial of the Trinity is a serious, and very heinous kind of heresy.
                      I don't know what you mean by "ungrounded". It seems to me that most Christians in most denominations are ignorant concerning the minute details of Christian doctrine. I know this is true among both my Catholic, and Protestant friends. For the record, Oneness Pentecostals do not deny the Trinity, they just have a very mistaken view of how it operates. Yes, obviously the view is heretical, but is it heretical enough that I'm certain a Oneness Pentecostal is not a Christian? No. I'll let Christ decide that.

                      Completely aside, and this isn't meant as a nitpick, but when writing "simple" as in "they're simple ignorant of it", we usually write "simply" with the "ly" at the end in English.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I don't know what you mean by "ungrounded". It seems to me that most Christians in most denominations are ignorant concerning the minute details of Christian doctrine. I know this is true among both my Catholic, and Protestant friends. For the record, Oneness Pentecostals do not deny the Trinity, they just have a very mistaken view of how it operates. Yes, obviously the view is heretical, but is it heretical enough that I'm certain a Oneness.
                        They deny that God is three Divine coexisting Persons, which has long been the standing definition of what the Trinity is. The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God. They'll be able to accept this, however they'll deny that: The Father is not the Son, The Son is no the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not The Father.

                        This is a serious heresy.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I think it's possible for a Christian to get "mixed up with" one of these other outfits, maybe because they don't understand what they teach. If the accept the doctrines, or actively deny the Trininty - that's a different thing.
                          I agree to some extent, because I actually think humans can be held accountable for what they believe, in as much as they have both time, opportunity, means and ability to understand these things. Most of the pastors in such a community are under a dire duty to figure out that God is triune and reject the heresy, returning to Christianity. People aren't simple sheep, though they're less culpable than their leaders.

                          Again, that's why Catholics distinguish between material and formal heresy: Someone can genuinely believe in something which is false and an offense to God, but unknowingly, if they're then made aware of this when confronted with the authoritative teaching, they must give up the heresy. If they don't then they become formal heretics.

                          I don't think we can assume that just because somebody wears a denominational tag that he accepts all that denomination teaches.
                          That's not what I said.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            The text literally says that the man talks to himself.
                            Please remind me where the Text Literally says that the man talks to himself. I know you asserted this before, but I'm too lazy to read through 30 pages of posts to find it. It seems to me that the text Literally says that the man speaks to God.
                            Source: 1 Cor 14:2 NASB

                            For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one [a]understands, but [b]in his spirit he speaks mysteries

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            The text no where literally says that the man cannot understand himself. My opponents rest their entire case on the existence of the gift of interpreting tongues and the verse about praying "that he may interpret."
                            No we don't, the text Literally says NO one understands. How does the speaker understand if NO one does? Also, we take "that he may interpret." into the context when we read the last part of the verse above "...in his spirit he speaks mysteries". If a man is speaking mysteries how can he understand them?

                            But there are numerous explanations for that verse, which can also allow for the speaker to understand himself. I don't have enough data to select exactly which explanation is correct. But I rely on the text about speaking to himself, which is clear.
                            But it doesn't clearly say that, you simple assert that

                            So the weight of the evidence supports my position. It's not a close call. The main reason people are confused is because of their charismatic traditions and preconceptions.
                            But I came to that conclusion when I was not a charismatic and was (at the time) against speaking in tongues. The text Literally Changed my mind on it...
                            Last edited by Littlejoe; 02-09-2015, 04:04 PM.
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Not arguing this at all, 37 - just curious where you got this? (It sounds correct as far as I know)
                              United Pentecostal web site and the Wikipedia on them.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                United Pentecostal web site and the Wikipedia on them.
                                Ah, ok. Thanks.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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