What Is TWeb's Thoughts on Charismatic Christianity

[Adrift]

This a very broad thread on charismatic Christianity. Some charismatics believe that their tradition can be traced to Jesus and the letters of Paul, and some go so far as to see support in the early church in Montanism (which, as far as I can tell, wasn't technically condemned as a heresy until quite late-ish), and, of course, the early teachings of Tertullian, who was a Montanist, but who eventually rejected that system of belief.

There was a Christian around here who used to get a bit silly on the Charismatic front. I wish I could remember his name, but it escapes me presently. He was largely disliked around here, but I haven't seen him around on the new forum (hope things are going well for him).

Up front, I do believe the gifts of the spirit are present and accounted for in the here and now. I think speaking in tongues is a sign of those gifts, and thought at one time that I demonstrated it in my personal life, but am unsure if what I practiced was the real thing. I'm interested in views for and against the charismatic movement here. But let's keep argumentation at a minimum if possible. The thread is open to all views.

I remember being quite surprised that charismatica demonstrated itself in a wide variety of denominations. The first time I heard of Catholic charismatics I was pretty stunned, but they do exist. Do they exist in the Eastern Orthodox faith? One would think they would what with the EO's focus on mysticism, but I don't know. How bout other denominational views. What about charismatic Lutherans, Baptists, Anglicans, etc.?

Let's also discuss controversial charismatic views like the Word-Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement, and the Kingdom Now movement. Are these charismatic beliefs totally and utterly anti-orthodox?

When and where did the charismatic movement find its modern origins, is it purely a result of things like the Azusa Street Revival, or can we trace its modern influence to the early 70s Jesus Freak movement?

These questions and more deserve a dialog. But I'm not sure anyone is really interested in engaging them. Prove me wrong.

[seanD]

Unfortunately I don't think the "gifts of the spirit" are compatible with an unbelieving generation such as ours. This would explain why so much of it in western countries is fake. On the other hand, it would also explain why much of it really does occur in countries not as "sophisticated" as ours and not as close-minded to the supernatural as ours. I think a lot of Christians in the west have good intentions and so want it to be manifested in their lives; they're just unfortunately hapless victims to modernity.

[Adrift]

Unfortunately I don't think the "gifts of the spirit" are compatible with an unbelieving generation such as ours. This would explain why so much of it in western countries is fake. On the other hand, it would also explain why much of it really does occur in countries not as "sophisticated" as ours and not as close-minded to the supernatural as ours. I think a lot of Christians in the west have good intentions and so want it to be manifested in their lives; they're just unfortunately hapless victims to modernity.

I think I get that. So essentially what you're saying is that, say, Africa, South America, parts of the Middle East, maybe even more primitive areas of South East Asia are more receptive to the miraculous, as well as the gifts of the spirit, because they're not necessarily bogged down with a sort of materialist worldview we find in industrial Western societies where we seek to find a way to explain away everything in psychological, sociological, or naturalistic means. Is that correct? If so, is there a way, do you think, that one could decipher, say, psychology from, let's say, actual spiritual manifestation (either positive or negative)? Is that also to say that you believe the gifts of the spirit, and/or the miraculous, are completely dead in the Western world?

[Raphael]

There was a Christian around here who used to get a bit silly on the Charismatic front. I wish I could remember his name, but it escapes me presently. He was largely disliked around here, but I haven't seen him around on the new forum (hope things are going well for him).

I think you're talking about Ty Rockwell.

Will reply more later right now got work to do. (on a Saturday.....the joys of deadlines)

[Adrift]

I think you're talking about Ty Rockwell.

Will reply more later right now got work to do. (on a Saturday.....the joys of deadlines)

Yep. Ty. Dang, I feel so stupid forgetting his name. Will be 40 this year. Suppose I should expect that.

Is it daylight there now. As I type this its exactly 12 AM here: Lost In Middle America, Ohio. Probably no snow there either...

[Manwë Súlimo]

I don't understand why the verse saying that unless there is an interpreter, the one speaking in tongues should remain silent is essentially ignored. Paul recognized incomprehensible language as mere sound and distraction and so do most people. And that's not even touching on the fact that what most (if not all) charismatics are "saying" is gibberish and nothing more.

[Adrift]

I don't understand why the verse saying that unless there is an interpreter, the one speaking in tongues should remain silent is essentially ignored. Paul recognized incomprehensible language as mere sound and distraction and so do most people. And that's not even touching on the fact that what most (if not all) charismatics are "saying" is gibberish and nothing more.

In the cult like ministry I was in before I became an orthodox Christian, interpretation of tongues was done after someone stood up and spoke in tongues. There were two types of tongues. One that was done in public and one done in private. The one in public was always followed by an interpretation. So someone would stand up, speak in an unknown tongue, and then someone else would stand up and interpret it. I don't know if that was the right thing to do, but it seemed right at the time.

[MaxVel]

Gosh, there's a lot we could talk about there, Adrift. I guess I would describe myself as a 'moderate charismatic'. I find the biblical arguments for charismatic gifts to be more convincing than the ones for cessation, and a number of experiences and testimonies support that as well.

I think that one of the problems with the charismatic movement (and it's 'opponents') is an over-emphasis on speaking in tongues. Perhaps too much weight is put on that as a defining gift.

A story:

The denomination I attend was founded by a Finnish missionary (it's now almost 100% local) about 50 years ago. He came here with his wife and young family, convinced God was leading them to preach the gospel here. His children got ill and passed away, and his wife died in childbirth, and almost no-one responded to the gospel. A broken man, he returned home to Finland, feeling that God had not been supporting his efforts. One day in church there, a lady got up and spoke 'in tongues'... ...except it was perfect Thai, telling the missionary that God had not forsaken or forgotten, and to return here once more. After the service, he approached the lady, who he did not know, and ask her where she had learnt to speak Thai. She replied 'But I was speaking in tongues! I have no idea what I said!'. The missionary was the only person in the whole church who could understand Thai.

He returned to Thailand, and now there are over 100 Thai churches serving God in the denomination he started.


so... no, I don't believe the gifts have ceased.

[Adrift]

Gosh, there's a lot we could talk about there, Adrift. I guess I would describe myself as a 'moderate charismatic'. I find the biblical arguments for charismatic gifts to be more convincing than the ones for cessation, and a number of experiences and testimonies support that as well.

I think that one of the problems with the charismatic movement (and it's 'opponents') is an over-emphasis on speaking in tongues. Perhaps too much weight is put on that as a defining gift.

A story:

The denomination I attend was founded by a Finnish missionary (it's now almost 100% local) about 50 years ago. He came here with his wife and young family, convinced God was leading them to preach the gospel here. His children got ill and passed away, and his wife died in childbirth, and almost no-one responded to the gospel. A broken man, he returned home to Finland, feeling that God had not been supporting his efforts. One day in church there, a lady got up and spoke 'in tongues'... ...except it was perfect Thai, telling the missionary that God had not forsaken or forgotten, and to return here once more. After the service, he approached the lady, who he did not know, and ask her where she had learnt to speak Thai. She replied 'But I was speaking in tongues! I have no idea what I said!'. The missionary was the only person in the whole church who could understand Thai.

He returned to Thailand, and now there are over 100 Thai churches serving God in the denomination he started.


so... no, I don't believe the gifts have ceased.

Dang Max, you always know how to make an entrance. Awesome story, and totally what I was looking for. Its a shame we don't see you more on the boards, but then again seems like you're constantly busy doing work that I only wish I could. Someday I'm going to pay off these student loans, and pay you a visit.

[MaxVel]

Dang Max, you always know how to make an entrance. Awesome story, and totally what I was looking for. Its a shame we don't see you more on the boards, but then again seems like you're constantly busy doing work that I only wish I could. Someday I'm going to pay off these student loans, and pay you a visit.

You'd be most welcome, bro.

Really I don't do much, just try and be available for God.

[Adrift]

By the way Max, What's it like living in a nation where there are, for lack of better words, a more primitive interpretation of the Gospel? Do you find that the miraculous if often more present there than in, say New Zealand (or was it that you're from Australia, sorry about my naivety on that matter. They seem like the same country from my perspective cept for the Tolkien's work there and Flight of the Conchords). I don't mind so much if folks down under mistake Canada with the USA. Its all basically the same to me.

For that matter, what are your thoughts on this Raphael? You live in South Africa, and I imagine you're sort of far away from this debate (course I can't help but think your ghettos are something like the movie District 9. That's obviously probably completely wrong, but eh, what do I know. ). How far away are you from the evangelical charismatic movements like those founded by Reindhard Bonnke. Do those even pop up on your radar at all?

[Adrift]

You'd be most welcome, bro.

Really I don't do much, just try and be available for God.

You're a teacher, right? Right there I'm fascinated by the work you do. Can't be easy. I'm sure we've talked about this in private, but do you lead a ministry there, or do you participate in an established church?

[footwasher]

Christ said no one could receive the gifts unless they entered by the narrow gate:

Matthew 7:14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Peter replied he had entered the narrow gate:

Luke 18:28Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.”

Christ confirmed that the gifts would be given to Peter.

Luke 12:"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give
you the kingdom

Luke 18:29And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

The Covenant of Law operated on the principle of loyalty, turning from the world, Egypt, selfishness, leading to rewarding of the Covenant of Law, where the signee would receive material blessings by performing the requirements of Torah, like Solomon and cursings if he stopped following the law, like Solomon. It was a covenant of death in the sense that it's signees did not obtain eternal life.

The Covenant of Grace operated on the principle of loyalty, leading to rewarding of the Covenant of Grace, where the signee would receive gifts, eternal life, ability to be blessings to the world.

How is the world blessed?

When Moses was commanded to save Israel from Egypt's oppression, he explained to God that it would be difficult. God gave him gifts.

When Christ sent his seventy two to save Israel from Mammon's oppression, He gave them gifts.

Simon Magus tried to buy a gift. No cigar, he had to enter through the narrow gate.

Ananias and Sapphira tried to buy gifts. No cheese, they had to enter through the narrow gate.

Christ preached about the narrow gate more than any other topic, except the kingdom of God, which is really a topic about the narrow gate, being the reward of entering the narrow gate.

[Adrift]

Is it possible for you to type in a way where your ideas are not split into poetic format? Its kinda hard to read. Also, I have no idea what you're getting at here. Can you post like you're a human being without being all preachy like? Also, what does any of what you just spent a considerable amount of time (presumably) have to do with the topic at hand?

[footwasher]

Is it possible for you to type in a way where your ideas are not split into poetic format? Its kinda hard to read. Also, I have no idea what you're getting at here. Can you post like you're a human being without being all preachy like? Also, what does any of what you just spent a considerable amount of time (presumably) have to do with the topic at hand?

Well if God commanded you to deliver people who made a mistake by being trapped in Egypt, being sellouts, serving da man, living a life of crass self centredness, and being crushed by the world, into living a self giving life, wouldn't you ask Him for help, proof that God could spread a banquet in the middle of the desert?

Israel was stuck in Egypt, and they often asked themselves , "This is how we are to be blessings to the world?"