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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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"Boy who came back from heaven" recants his story
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Yeah, it's kind of sad that this sort of thing is picked up by truckloads of Christians... when in contrast, I've been trying to get people to read something decent on the topic (Randy Alcorn's book Heaven), and not a single person will take me up on it
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo, can you cite one commentator, besides you, who think that man v. 2 was not referring to himself?
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostMy point still stands. If he was there physically or not, he was not permitted to speak of what he heard or saw. Which is the exact opposite of what people who have "heaven" experiences are doing nowadays.
There is a story related in The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus where a rather unstudious monk died and came back to life a short time later. Without a word, the monk bricked up the entrance to his cave from the inside, leaving only a hole for food to enter. When he was dying several years later, the other monks asked him what he'd experienced. All he said was, "those who die will never sin again."
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Originally posted by Raphael View PostWash your mouth out....errr you typed that.....go wash them hands. St Nick is an awesome and hardworking fellow. (and prone to punching out heretics)
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostI really don't think it could be Paul based on this.
2 Corinthians 12:5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say,
He would be heavily contradicting himself if he were the one who experienced that, and I don't think he's that stupid.
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I really don't think it could be Paul based on this.
2 Corinthians 12:5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say,
He would be heavily contradicting himself if he were the one who experienced that, and I don't think he's that stupid.
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostGill comments:
"And no man hath ascended into heaven,.... Though Enoch and Elias had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in Deuteronomy 30:12, and which may be illustrated by John 1:18; wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them.."
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/3-13.htm
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Originally posted by Raphael View PostPaul's experience was post the resurrection.
You could be correct that it was just a vision, but Paul makes it plain, even repeating himself, that he was unable to say if it was a vision or if he was physically there (if it was indeed himself he was talking about). I think if he is uncertain about it, we should avoid stating that it was definitely a vision and cound't be a cse of physically being there.
Regardless of whether this was post resurrection, I see nothing in the rest of the NT that negates what Jesus stated in John 3.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostIf you think I am in error, then please tell me what you all think Jesus was saying in John 3:13.
"And no man hath ascended into heaven,.... Though Enoch and Elias had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in Deuteronomy 30:12, and which may be illustrated by John 1:18; wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them.."
Source: http://biblehub.com/john/3-13.htm
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostAs I already pointed out, the first verse of that passage is referring to visions. What follows in the account of the man would logically be included in the discussion of "visions".
If you think I am in error, then please tell me what you all think Jesus was saying in John 3:13.
You could be correct that it was just a vision, but Paul makes it plain, even repeating himself, that he was unable to say if it was a vision or if he was physically there (if it was indeed himself he was talking about). I think if he is uncertain about it, we should avoid stating that it was definitely a vision and cound't be a cse of physically being there.
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Originally posted by ScrawlyActually Elijah did return when Jesus was transfigured.
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As I already pointed out, the first verse of that passage is referring to visions. What follows in the account of the man would logically be included in the discussion of "visions".
If you think I am in error, then please tell me what you all think Jesus was saying in John 3:13.
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