Atheism

[KingsGambit]

I don't see why it's so hard to believe that one could legitimately suppress knowledge of God. If modern psychology and sociology has taught us anything it's that humanity has mastered the art of denial.

I think what people have a harder time with is the notion that literally every atheist does this.

[Leonhard]

As an unbeliever I was never aware of a "secret" recognition of God. When I was saved, I realized that indeed I had known of the reality of God, but had hidden it away so I was not aware of it. The recognition was not just denied, I had no idea that I did know.

That might be possible, its just hard for me to understand. If I could be that wrong about what I believe, I'd feel insecure about whether I actually have faith or not in what I believe in. I do know what I believe in though, so that's not the issue. When I reconverted I didn't have what you're talking about here. I could understand many of the events that had happened in my life, and I could also recognise the steps God had used to lead me back. Some internal and some external.

I'm also not sure what it would for someone to say 'I had no idea that I knew'. Personally I think a person who seeks the clues, and the proddings of the Holy Spirit will inevitably find God. Someone who resists those proddings, he's certainly suppressing the truth. In some sense he doesn't want to know the truth, he's happy with his sin. That doesn't mean he knows the truth, he just prefers a fantasy to the real thing.

That's how I mostly read it anyway.

[Adrift]

I think what people have a harder time with is the notion that literally every atheist does this.

Why would that be so hard to believe? Avowed atheists (not agnostics or the irreligious) comprise something like less than 8% of the world's population.

[Leonhard]

St. Thomas Aquinas, took the approach that Romans 1:19 referred to the fact that God can be known to all people, not that He is known by all. God has made the world to manifest His glory, and a lot about Him can be known through it. Though not everything, as somethings can only be known through revelation.

Take the Trinity, no one who isn't a Christian with access to the Bible or to Sacred Tradition could have known about it. No one can be claimed to be guilty of suppressing that in unrightiousness, unless of course they've gotten the revelation by evangelization.

[Leonhard]

Why would that be so hard to believe? Avowed atheists (not agnostics or the irreligious) comprise something like less than 8% of the world's population.

I was an atheist, what you're describing doesn't match my experience. Can we deceive ourselves, yes, but I'm not sure what kind of point that is. I'm not an expert in Biblical exegesis, but I don't see why we have to read it in the sense that all atheists are secretly theists, in some weird kind of denial. First of all I don't think its the truth, but second of all it seems uncharitable.

[Adrift]

I was an atheist, what you're describing doesn't match my experience. Can we deceive ourselves, yes, but I'm not sure what kind of point that is. I'm not an expert in Biblical exegesis, but I don't see why we have to read it in the sense that all atheists are secretly theists, in some weird kind of denial. First of all I don't think its the truth, but second of all it seems uncharitable.

I don't see what charity has to do with truth. Very often the truth is hard to swallow.

At any rate, self deception can come in forms that don't (in my opinion) require the deceived to have consciously aware motivations. I think there are probably very few atheists who say "God doesn't exist because I want to get high tonight", or something to that effect. Subconsciously there may be all sorts of motivations to reject belief in God that manifests in the conscious conclusion that God does not exist.

You knew that God existed at some point before you became an atheist. It's beyond comprehension that one could completely snuff out that sort of knowledge. Evidence of that seems to be that you're a theist once again.

[Leonhard]

I don't see what charity has to do with truth. Very often the truth is hard to swallow.

Granted, I meant simple that unless you had very good reasons to read this passage in that particular way, assuming better motives on the part of the ones you're talking to seems better than assuming the worst.

At any rate, self deception can come in forms that don't (in my opinion) require the deceived to have consciously aware motivations. ... Subconsciously there may be all sorts of motivations to reject belief in God that manifests in the conscious conclusion that God does not exist.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what this would look like. Can you give a concrete example? Our beliefs are concious. Anything else is something baser, and lower, more animal, i.e not part of the human nature that God looks to judge. We do have a heart of hearts, and its also true that our hearts can be deceptive, I'll grant that... but to the point that none of us can know for certain what we believe?

I didn't believe in God then. I do know. If I know I believe in God know, I know I didn't believe in God then. If I did believe in God then, how can I know I do believe in God now?

You knew that God existed at some point before you became an atheist. It's beyond comprehension that one could completely snuff out that sort of knowledge. Evidence of that seems to be that you're a theist once again.

I think we can speculate all we want about the faith of our childhood. I grew up with a nominally Christian mother, and an atheist father. Religion just wasn't part of my growing up experience, except for the traditional danish culture I was embedded in. Mostly songs, Christmas hymns, and the Lutheran confirmation that everyone, including atheists, went through.

During all of that I remember only being an atheist and thinking religion was something weird. I genuinely didn't believe in God. Was there signs that God existed? Of course. I have no trouble believing that I was aware of such signs on some level, and of course being resistant to them. This is how I see that passage. Not that I actually believed in God, but denied it to myself.

I became a Christian at the age of thirteen in a very gracefilled experience. I know the difference between not believing in God, and believing in Him. Later I lost the faith.

Again its personal testimony, subject to all the flaws inherent in that. I don't expect it to convince you, and its not iron-clad evidence, but I haven't seen anything that has made me update this understanding of Romans 1:19.

[Adrift]

Granted, I meant simple that unless you had very good reasons to read this passage in that particular way, assuming better motives on the part of the ones you're talking to seems better than assuming the worst.

I think the citation I offered by the New Testament scholar Ben Witherington III gives very good reasons for accepting that particular reading.

I'm afraid I'm not sure what this would look like. Can you give a concrete example?

Certainly. Fear, doubt, pity, self-loathing, anger. I can imagine a scenario where a person takes extreme pity on the suffering of others to the extent that the idea of a God both existing and not doing anything to relieve that suffering is intolerable to that person. At some level in their subconscious core they know that God exists. They may even act and live as though God exists, but the anger and despair of that dissonance is too powerful for them to deal with, and so they swallow up that belief in God and consciously come to the conclusion that he does not exist.

Honestly, I don't understand why this is a hard thing to imagine. We know of all sorts of psychiatric cases where rational individuals consciously suppress events and beliefs in their minds that are only brought to light through therapy. Even relatively mundane things. Why is it so hard to comprehend the same could be true of belief in God?

Our beliefs are concious. Anything else is something baser, and lower, more animal, i.e not part of the human nature that God looks to judge.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

We do have a heart of hearts, and its also true that our hearts can be deceptive, I'll grant that... but to the point that none of us can know for certain what we believe, or that all our beliefs are suspect ala Descartes.

I don't see the problem. I think it's well within the realm of plausibility.

I didn't believe in God then. I do know. If I know I believe in God know, I know I didn't believe in God then. If I did believe in God then, how can I know I do believe in God now?

I think we can speculate all we want about the faith of our childhood. I grew up with a nominally Christian mother, and an atheist father. Religion just wasn't part of my growing up experience, except for the traditional danish culture I was embedded in. Mostly songs, Christmas hymns, and the Lutheran confirmation that everyone, including atheists, went through.

During all of that I remember only being an atheist and thinking religion was something weird. I genuinely didn't believe in God. Was there signs that God existed? Of course. I have trouble believing that I was aware of such signs on some level.

So, you're saying that when you first came to this forum with the Christian tag, before you changed it to atheist, you were in fact functionally atheist all along? Is that correct?

[Leonhard]

So, you're saying that when you first came to this forum with the Christian tag, before you changed it to atheist, you were in fact functionally atheist all along? Is that correct?

No where are you getting that from? I came to tweb when I was fourteen I think. Or something along those lines, and I started participating actively nine years ago or so. I had been a Christian for a long time by then. I later became an atheist again, after moving to Aarhus to study Physics. Then very recently I found the faith again.

[Adrift]

No where are you getting that from? I came to tweb when I was fourteen I think. Or something along those lines, and I started participating actively nine years ago or so. I had been a Christian for a long time by then. I later became an atheist again, after moving to Aarhus to study Physics. Then very recently I found the faith again.

So you were an atheist, then a theist, then an atheist, and now a theist again.

[Scrawly]

Fantastic responses Adrift, thank-you!

[Leonhard]

I think the citation I offered by the New Testament scholar Ben Witherington III gives very good reasons for accepting that particular reading.

I'm still looking into it, it was a good citation, I didn't get to thank you for it. I'm not sure I'm convinced by it though.

Certainly. Fear, doubt, pity, self-loathing, anger. I can imagine a scenario where a person takes extreme pity on the suffering of others to the extent that the idea of a God both existing and not doing anything to relieve that suffering is intolerable to that person. At some level in their subconscious core they know that God exists. They may even act and live as though God exists, but the anger and despair of that dissonance is too powerful for them to deal with, and so they swallow up that belief in God and consciously come to the conclusion that he does not exist.

I have no idea what this person is doing, what he thinks. And he doesn't seem a realistic creation that matches my experience of being an atheist, or of the other atheists that I've known.

We know of all sorts of psychiatric cases where rational individuals consciously suppress events and beliefs in their minds that are only brought to light through therapy.

Are you talking about suppressed memories? Those have been rejected by the psychiatric community as having no real legitimacy.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

We can't be judged for things we don't actively will. There is no such thing as involuntary. Though I might not understand what you mean by subconcious then, you seem to ascribe will and intent to it. Again, I did not intend to deny God. I just found I couldn't believe in Him. I was actually searching for evidence to prove His existence for years. I even prayed occasionally, on the off-chance that He might exist and could respond to those prayers. Kinda like turning on a radio, and broadcasting a message in case anyone was listening.

We do have a heart of hearts, and its also true that our hearts can be deceptive, I'll grant that... but to the point that none of us can know for certain what we believe, or that all our beliefs are suspect ala Descartes.

I think it's well within the realm of plausibility.

I don't think it is. We can know what we believe, and therefore be called to account for it. Though didn't Calvin stress many times that even the electoi couldn't know whether they were part of the elect, and not part of those God hated?

[Leonhard]

So you were an atheist, then a theist, then an atheist, and now a theist again.

Yes.

[Teallaura]

FYI: Answering from a phone so this will be short.

I don't think it's a matter of being a 'closet' theist. I think that when confronted with the truth at the judgment even the strongest atheist will have to acknowledge that the only thing really stopping them from having known was their own unwillingness to see what was right before them.

I do think that there is a level at which we know that God is there because we are made in His image and given an instinct to seek Him. But it's a mistake to think of that knowledge as being the same as conscious knowledge. It's more akin to the way we know how to breathe from the instant of birth, despite having never before been exposed to air.

[Adrift]

I'm still looking into it, it was a good citation, I didn't get to thank you for it. I'm not sure I'm convinced by it though.

Ok.

I have no idea what this person is doing, what he thinks. And he doesn't seem a realistic creation that matches my experience of being an atheist, or of the other atheists that I've known.

Ok. That's about as good an example as I can conjure. My example makes perfect sense to me, so there's obviously some sort of divide here that I won't be able to bridge with any example I can think of.

Are you talking about suppressed memories? Those have been rejected by the psychiatric community as having no real legitimacy.

I'm talking about dissociation, and perhaps on a slightly more conscious level, denialism.

We can't be judged for things we don't actively will. There is no such thing as involuntary. Though I might not understand what you mean by subconcious then, you seem to ascribe will and intent to it.

Is knowledge "active will"?

I don't think it is. We can know what we believe, and therefore be called to account for it. Though didn't Calvin stress many times that even the electoi couldn't know whether they were part of the elect, and not part of those God hated?

If its not even something that's even plausible to you then there's probably not much more I can say.