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Gentile Dogs!

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  • Gentile Dogs!

    And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." (Mat. 15:26).

    I just came across a lovely little article on the above verse. Please read it first and then discuss.

    http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/ar...ords-of-christ

  • #2
    I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the "harshness" of Jesus' words here, as described in the article. He often said things to provoke thought, and when He asked questions, it wasn't because He didn't know the answer.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the "harshness" of Jesus' words here, as described in the article. He often said things to provoke thought, and when He asked questions, it wasn't because He didn't know the answer.
      I can see the harshness in His response. Since the woman was not Jewish, His response probably borders on being a ethnic slur. I like dogs but don't expect a favorable response if you call me one.

      I agree He often said things to provoke thought, a deeper commitment, etc. One item He maybe trying to get to in this case is no one is too untouchable to be helped by God.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #4
        Matthew 15:26
        And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.”


        Mark 7:27-28
        And he said to her, “Let the children be fed first, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” But she answered him, “Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs.”



        Things to consider before answering.

        John 6:26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’”32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
        35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


        God sent Moses to bring Israel out of Egypt, but Moses argued that Israel would not listen to him. They were working for the bread that sustained their bodies, bread not available outside Egypt. God gave Moses the ability to manifest His works, so that Israel would leave Egypt, the Egypt that provided bread that perished for the bread that leads to eternal life, by following God.

        Moses prophesied that Israel would fall away and God would send another like him, Moses, to give them instruction for restitution, and that He needed to be obeyed.

        Jesus came to take Israel out of working again for bread that perished to working for bread from heaven. He even provided that bread but the Jews cast it away because they did not want to leave working for perishable bread. They had no loyalty to God, no faith, not even in Jesus’s own country, Nazareth. That’s why he could not distribute bread there. They did not want it, nor the proof that God could give that bread, even when Jesus said they could disbelieve His words, (that God was in Him, and that He was resting in God, in the real Promised Land, and God wanted them to follow Him into Rest}, but they should not disbelieve the signs:


        John 10:1At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”
        31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.


        Why did the SyroPhoenician woman approach Jesus, even though she knew she was a Gentile dog, unclean, not entitled to God’s rest, abiding in the Promised land, even in God? Because she knew that the Jews were to be blessed, in order to bless the world.

        How was this going to happen when those very Jews were casting bread, blessings under the table, rejecting those blessings? Not being loyal, disbelieving the words and the works. Perhaps if she showed faith, bread would come to the Gentiles directly, without going through the Jew, without the need to have Jews in the loop. She therefore stepped forward and confessed, recognised Jesus as the Christ, believed His word. She had the immediate need for bread too, the relieving of the terrible possession by a demon of her daughter:

        Mark 7:25But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet.

        What a difference from the reaction of Jerusalem, Chorazin and Bethsaida, strongholds of the Jewish faith:

        Luke 10:"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

        And when Jesus reacted by using the word kunariori, lap dog, or house pet, instead of kion, the usual derogatory label for Gentile, she understood He was encouraging her, wanted her to proceed, that he accepted she too was considered part of God’s household, sheep of another flock! She did proceed, latching on to the encouragement, by arguing that household pets were entitled to the wastage of the children! For her loyalty, for her recognition of Him as the Christ, she was given “bread”.
        Last edited by footwasher; 01-11-2015, 01:29 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Foot, did you read the article? Yes or no.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            Foot, did you read the article? Yes or no.
            Yes. It's short, no?

            I can't get the link of another longer article which I have drawn my material from, which stresses the use of the dimunitive, else I would have provided it too.

            So what you see is what you get.

            However, every assertion can be supported. For example:

            Quote

            Mark 6:5-6 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
            We've seen a lot of skeptics quote this verse lately, saying that it indicates that Jesus was a charlatan who (like our modern "faith healer" Benny) needed people to have "faith" and excused away ability to heal real diseases as a lack of faith. The word "unbelief" here is apistia, meaning a lack of pistis.

            In light of our better understanding of pistis, the problem is indeed not with Jesus but with the lack of loyalty and trust by those who reject Jesus. Like the ungrateful client in the client-patron relationship, the people rejected Jesus as a patron in spite of his acts of grace, thereby dishonoring him. (Note how this affects the meaning of Mark 6:4: "A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.") To reject a gracious act was the height of dishonor.

            Jesus could not heal these people not because of a lack of power, but because of ingratitude and a rejection of his gracious patronage. A rejected patron could and would never force his gracious gifts upon a client who didn't want them!

            http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.php
            Last edited by footwasher; 01-11-2015, 03:19 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              Foot, did you read the article? Yes or no.
              Does that ever matter to FW?
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Couldn't it have been sarcasm?
                "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Does that ever matter to FW?
                  Hey! I just quoted someone else's view, not mine!

                  'We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'

                  Maybe I'll find that article soon...

                  PS It was lucid, cogent, insightful, yada yada yada, no?
                  Last edited by footwasher; 01-11-2015, 07:42 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                    Hey!
                    Hey!
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                      I can see the harshness in His response. Since the woman was not Jewish, His response probably borders on being a ethnic slur. I like dogs but don't expect a favorable response if you call me one.
                      What's missing is the same thing that's missing when we respond to each other in Tweb. We have no facial expression, body language, tone of voice....

                      I agree He often said things to provoke thought, a deeper commitment, etc. One item He maybe trying to get to in this case is no one is too untouchable to be helped by God.
                      Ya never know. The fact that it actually led to a good outcome would tend to show that Jesus knew what He was doing (as if there's any doubt) and was playing to a specific audience.
                      Last edited by Cow Poke; 01-11-2015, 07:48 PM.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the "harshness" of Jesus' words here, as described in the article.
                        Imagine He was a bus driver and told a black person he can't sit somewhere because it's reserved for whites. Even if He was just making a point it would still be seen as harsh and offensive today.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          Imagine He was a bus driver and told a black person he can't sit somewhere because it's reserved for whites. Even if He was just making a point it would still be seen as harsh and offensive today.
                          Nothing here saying the household dog cannot be fed:

                          Matthew 15:26
                          And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.”


                          Mark 7:27-28
                          And he said to her, “Let the children be fed first, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” But she answered him, “Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs.”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            Imagine He was a bus driver and told a black person he can't sit somewhere because it's reserved for whites. Even if He was just making a point it would still be seen as harsh and offensive today.
                            If that's the law, He could be doing it as a kindness so they don't end up in trouble. Tone of voice, body language, facial expression...
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The woman does not seem to have taken umbrage; why should we?
                              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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