Dear Church, Here's Why People Are Really Leaving You

[footwasher]

Way to continue building up one another.

Building one another up isn’t patting each other on the back. i could walk into any number of bars to get that “ministry”.

Building each other up is loving one another, and no man has greater love than this but to lay down his life for his friend. Laying down one’s life means to sacrifice popularity and uphold hard unpopular teachings, like Christ and Paul did. It involves being misunderstood and criticised, but as Paul says, it was “So death works in us, but life in you.”:

2 Corinthians 4:Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death works in us, but life in you.

13But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I BELIEVED,THEREFORE I SPOKE,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, 14knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. 15For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

16Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

But if God wasn't interested in NUMBERS, why did He name a whole book in the Bible "Numbers"?

... and 3,000 were added to the Church that day... and he fed 5,000 men, and women and children.... the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints... And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand....


Seriously, though, I know what you mean --- not numbers for the sake of numbers, but don't forget, each "number" represents a soul.

You say each number represents a soul, implying each number is saved. Else you mean each number is an additional resource for your church budget, so salvation is not the motive for your outreach, but survival of your church.

In the passage, Jesus was addressing the crowd.

Another example, Matthew 19:27, "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? . . . "

You can believe what you want. I stated my understanding of Luke 14:33.

No, that is not permissible to believe what I want but to hold people responsible for what they state, just as I will be held responsible for every word I form.

Are you implying that the requirements for disciples is only for His contemporaries?

The historical context here, was to be His disciple with Him when He walked this earth.

IOW, these disciples do not have to repent, turn from dependence on mammon to dependence on God:

Matthew 28: 16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

But these had to:

Luke 14:33"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

Remember, those in Acts 5 continued to repent, even when Christ had ascended.

[37818]

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . " -- 1 John 5:1

God is the one who makes His disciples. It is not do to what we do.

". . . to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12, 13.

". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:5.


There is only one way. ". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. . . ." -- 1 John 5:12.

[footwasher]

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . " -- 1 John 5:1

God is the one who makes His disciples. It is not do (sic) to what we do.

". . . to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -- John 1:12, 13.

". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -- Romans 4:5.


There is only one way. ". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. . . ." -- 1 John 5:12.

http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.php

Quote
Second, note that in very few cases is this form of pistis, as meaning a proof, in view. The meaning does give us a clue as to the nature of other meanings. It is often used as a noun to refer to the Christian "faith" as a set of convictions. In far many more cases the meaning intended is in the sense of faithfulness, or loyalty as owed to one in whom one is embedded for service (in this case, the body of Christ).

This now leads to an expansion of the pistis concept as derived from deSilva. As deSilva shows, the relationship between the believer and God is framed in terms of an ancient client-patron relationship. As God's "clients" to whom he has shown unmerited favor (grace), our response should be, as Malina and Neyrey frame it, a "constant awareness" of prescribed duties toward those in whom we are indebted (God) and the group in which we are embedded (God's kin group, the body of Christ).

This "constant awareness" is the expression of our faithfulness of loyalty -- in other words, this is our pistis, or faith. "Faith" is not a feeling, but our pledge to trust and be reliable servants to our patron (God), who has provided us with tangible gifts (Christ) and proof thereby of His own reliability.

[Cow Poke]

You say each number represents a soul, implying each number is saved.

That's just goofy beyond belief. You think lost people don't HAVE souls?

Else you mean each number is an additional resource for your church budget,

Your thinking astounds me.... each number could just as easily represent a soul needing saved.

so salvation is not the motive for your outreach, but survival of your church.

I have never pastored a Church that had money problems -- we focus on preaching Jesus crucified, buried and risen again, and God blesses.

What is your fascination with money, that it seems to be the focus of who you are?

[footwasher]

That's just goofy beyond belief. You think lost people don't HAVE souls?

Your statement made one think those who were attracted to and entered your church were saved.

Your thinking astounds me.... each number could just as easily represent a soul needing saved.

Of course it does. What makes you think that soul needing saving WILL be saved in your church?

I have never pastored a Church that had money problems -- we focus on preaching Jesus crucified, buried and risen again, and God blesses.

I'm sure He blesses the local bingo hall in the same way.

What is your fascination with money, that it seems to be the focus of who you are?

Scripture sets of God against Mammon, not Satan:

http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpage...play=article05

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It is interesting to see that even though Jesus referred to Satan as "the ruler of this world" (John 14:30). He never referred to Satan as the alternative master to God, whom people have the choice of serving. When Jesus spoke of two masters whom men could serve, He said that the two were God and Mammon (Luke 16:13). In Christendom, generally speaking, preachers have always urged people to choose between God and Satan. Jesus however urged people to choose between God and Mammon.

Satan is a master schemer. He knows that if people are told to choose between God and Satan, no one will choose Satan. But when the choice is between God and Mammon, Satan knows that even believers will find it difficult to make a decisive choice.

The point is that Paul taught that the picture of the believer that was representative of the completed Christian was of one who had nothing, not of a contented old pensioner in a retirement home:


Quote
They have after all already been reconciled to God. Now they must not receive this grace in vain. Moreover they now have a new motive to heed his appeal. The one
who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby , battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becom...hteousness.pdf

2 Corinthians 5:21New Living Translation
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.


Acts 26:29And Paul said, “I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains.”

[One Bad Pig]

Building one another up isn’t patting each other on the back. i could walk into any number of bars to get that “ministry”.

I only said that it was in your head.

Building each other up is loving one another, and no man has greater love than this but to lay down his life for his friend. Laying down one’s life means to sacrifice popularity and uphold hard unpopular teachings, like Christ and Paul did. It involves being misunderstood and criticised,

Fascinating. Are you trying to say that you're building up your friend CP and laying down your life for him here?

[footwasher]

I only said that it was in your head.

Which I disagreed with, and still do. It isn't in my head. It's in the Bible.

Fascinating. Are you trying to say that you're building up your friend CP and laying down your life for him here?

Apparently Paul thought so, and the Corinthian church didn't. Why did Paul say death was at work in him?

[One Bad Pig]

Which I disagreed with, and still do. It isn't in my head. It's in the Bible.

You misunderstand. I never said that. You only imagined I said that.

Apparently Paul thought so, and the Corinthian church didn't. Why did Paul say death was at work in him?

I'm fairly certain Paul didn't weigh in on the conversation we're having here. In your posts here, are you trying to say that you're building up your friend CP and laying down your life for him? I'm not asking what Paul thought. By YOUR actions in this thread, do you think that YOU are building up CP and laying down your life for him?

[footwasher]

You misunderstand. I never said that. You only imagined I said that.

I claimed I was building up

You said "Way to go", pointing out what you saw as a very unbuilding up post.

You then said it was in my head,

Summing up,

OBP: "Way to go, FW in your claim to building up, maybe in your dreams".

Lay out your words yourself and rephrase them if you don't believe me

I'm fairly certain Paul didn't weigh in on the conversation we're having here. In your posts here, are you trying to say that you're building up your friend CP and laying down your life for him? I'm not asking what Paul thought. By YOUR actions in this thread, do you think that YOU are building up CP and laying down your life for him?

Peter resisted Christ and Christ rebuked him, to build him up.

[Cow Poke]

Your statement made one think those who were attracted to and entered your church were saved.

No, the burr under your saddle made YOU think that.

Of course it does. What makes you think that soul needing saving WILL be saved in your church?

You're really not very good at this, are you? And you accuse ME of reading comprehension?

I'm sure He blesses the local bingo hall in the same way.

I think you should change your name from "Footwasher" (which brings about the image of humility and service) to "PotStirrer".

[Cow Poke]

I'm sure He blesses the local bingo hall in the same way.

This is something I would expect to come from a lost person, not a Christian.

I believe that being faithful to the preaching of the Word of God is crucial. Over the past 40+ years of ministry, I have seen God honor that through a number of blessings, including the addition of members to the body, sufficient finances to carry out His mission, Joy in the membership, UNITY.....

My point (for anybody who actually cares) is that, if we focus on the things of eternal significance, God gives the increase. (That's actually biblical!)

As for bingo halls? They sell you the card to play on, and they MAKE MONEY from that -- it's not a "blessing from God".

[Sparko]

I can tell you that CP has been a great help to me in some personal decisions and questions I have had over the years. If I lived in his town, he would be my pastor and I would be in the front pew every Sunday.

[One Bad Pig]

I claimed I was building up

You said "Way to go", pointing out what you saw as a very unbuilding up post.

You then said it was in my head,

Summing up,

OBP: "Way to go, FW in your claim to building up, maybe in your dreams".

Lay out your words yourself and rephrase them if you don't believe me

Post 32: In responding to CP, you cast aspersions on him for not doing something you haven't even asked him to do
Post 33: I question why, since it seems out of the blue
Post 35: You declare it "pointless" to ask him to provide a response, linking to another thread for proof
Post 37: While perusing that thread, I note that you contend we should build up one another, and point out your hypocrisy in doing the very opposite here.
Post 46: Your opening response to that is to say, "Building one another up isn’t patting each other on the back. i could walk into any number of bars to get that “ministry”." - which NO one in this thread has been propounding - in other words, you thought up a strawman to attack.

Peter resisted Christ and Christ rebuked him, to build him up.

You did not rebuke CP. You said bad things ABOUT him, and then alleged it was POINTLESS to expect anything more from him. And you're not Christ.

[footwasher]

Post 32: In responding to CP, you cast aspersions on him for not doing something you haven't even asked him to do
Post 33: I question why, since it seems out of the blue
Post 35: You declare it "pointless" to ask him to provide a response, linking to another thread for proof
Post 37: While perusing that thread, I note that you contend we should build up one another, and point out your hypocrisy in doing the very opposite here.
Post 46: Your opening response to that is to say, "Building one another up isn’t patting each other on the back. i could walk into any number of bars to get that “ministry”." - which NO one in this thread has been propounding - in other words, you thought up a strawman to attack.

You did not rebuke CP. You said bad things ABOUT him, and then alleged it was POINTLESS to expect anything more from him. And you're not Christ.

Which was not casting aspersion, but proved true.

IOW, you now ignore the fact that he never engages the discussion and zero in on a perception you have about how a discussion should go.


Way to go.

Prove it isn't so by laying out your exact posts.

All the best in hoping to make any progress.

If it was Christ teaching, He would have been way more harsh, despairing at the slowness of discussion.

It looks like actually giving Scriptural support for objections isn't known here, just ad hom.

Maybe trying to do that will take apart my views better.

[Cow Poke]

IOW, you ignore the fact that he never engages the discussion and zero in on a perception you have about how a discussion should go.

Never? Not even as recently as Post # 56 in this very thread?

The fact that I don't play Bible Battle with you hurling unrelated verses does not mean I'm not engaging the subject. I just don't see using the Word of God as a series of daggers with which to accost a brother. I hold the Bible much more dear than that.