// Required code

Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Music Debate Between Fundamentalist and Rapper

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Music Debate Between Fundamentalist and Rapper

    This topic probably won't be relevant to most of you, but because of the college from which I graduated I find it interesting.

    Scott Aniol, a Reformed fundamentalist, and Shai Linne, a Reformed rapper, began a discussion on music and the meaning in it. Specifically, they are discussing the morality of rap. Their discussion has hit upon several subtopics by now (including a very interesting reference to heavy metal by Scott), but that's the gist. This all began because Scott took part in a fundamentalist panel that gave some opinions on Christian rap--their opinions were, unsurprisingly, all negative. Afterward Shai approached Scott on Scott's website and asked him for a discussion on the topic; Scott agreed. Thus it began.

    So far their discussion has actually been quite civil. There seems to be a mutual respect and solid attempts by both men to represent each other fairly. The discussion is taking place on Scott's website, so there's quite a bit of discussion in the comments section of each of the debate responses (it's split up into several blog posts: they're taking turns asking each other questions, answering, then rebutting).

    Still, I find Scott's arguments to be very weak. You may not want to read the entire thing, as it's become somewhat lengthy now, but I'm curious to get some opinions on it. I actually left a couple comments on two of the responses, but very soon thereafter gave up. I was not impressed with some of the responses I was getting from "the other side of the fence", so to speak. (I, and other "progressives" who don't believe rap is inherently sinful, were straight-up called liars and postmodernists at one point, for example.)

    Here is the introduction. Links to the next portion of the debate should be provided in each section.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  • #2
    I find the idea that Christians should limit how they worship and spread the Gospel [within the context of music] to be silly. Some prefer to worship with hymns, others prefer Hillsong. So too, I have heard Christian Rap that I can appreciate, even if the genre is not to my personal liking. Further, I think it should be noted that a SIGNIFICANT portion of the modern "Hardcore" scene (Hardcore and its relations are genres of heavy rock/metal known to outsiders as "screamo"), are Christian youths, you might not like how the message is delivered but if the following is the content I don't think you should complain:

    "But let my hope cry out that my God is greater than the pain of persecution. My God is greater than this world. There will never be another chance to live today for God. There will never be another name that can save us from ourselves. And so, steadfast and undeterred, I will proclaim the name of Christ to a dead and dying world. I am not ashamed!"
    -For Today, Saul of Tarsus (The Messenger)
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

    Comment


    • #3
      If I were to assume rap is somehow bad (which is moronic, but whatever), then I would still support Christians "redeeming" said music but commandeering it for the Gospel, as we have down with some pagan traditions.

      I haven't read the debate, but can someone put into a nutshell why a certain arrangement of notes can be given moral values?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo View Post
        If I were to assume rap is somehow bad (which is moronic, but whatever), then I would still support Christians "redeeming" said music but commandeering it for the Gospel, as we have down with some pagan traditions.

        I haven't read the debate, but can someone put into a nutshell why a certain arrangement of notes can be given moral values?
        I've heard the argument made that the beat common to rock music is inherently demonic because it hypnotizes or something like that. My understanding is that this is nonsense. It is at least a better attempt than the borderline racist argument that rock and roll stems from voodoo ceremonies which was appropriated by black cultures over the years.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo View Post
          If I were to assume rap is somehow bad (which is moronic, but whatever), then I would still support Christians "redeeming" said music but commandeering it for the Gospel, as we have down with some pagan traditions.

          I haven't read the debate, but can someone put into a nutshell why a certain arrangement of notes can be given moral values?
          I could try, but I wouldn't want to inadvertently misrepresent it. Let me think about this, and get back to you.
          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok, there are several different arguments that I've seen. Some are worse than others. (For example, I saw one guy argue that because 16th-18th century European culture was the only culture in recent history to be heavily influenced by Christianity, that therefore music in that time period and location is the only kind of music that's acceptable.)

            Very basically Scott's argument is this: though the Bible does not give explicit instructions on music styles, it does give instructions on communication. Music is communication. Therefore, what the Bible says concerning communication applies to music. He also argues that music has an intrinsic morality, though I've never really seen a good defense of this claim. Some things that are given in defense of it are cultural uses of the music (e.g., rap typically used by one crowd, frequently with promiscuous lyrics), the cultural origin of the music, and that musicological explanations for the inherent communication of the music meaning all of these things can be given. (Note: I've never actually seen these reasons given. During the debate, Scott was asked to examine a particular piece of music, and he avoided giving these very reasons, instead essentially claiming that it was obvious. This claim is made a lot.)

            I suppose I could simplify that further: just as we would ask a professional about our health (a doctor), so too should we ask a professional about what music communicates (a musicologist).
            Last edited by Zymologist; 01-30-2014, 11:29 AM.
            I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

            Comment


            • #7
              I've spent some minutes scanning through the posts. Scott hasn't shown how rap is negative during the conversation; the best he did was to link to another post or two he wrote earlier on the subject.

              His main argument against rap is that "the cultural milieu out of which rap was born is un-Christian. It is a culture of denigration, violence, rage, and self-aggrandizement. The aesthetic forms of rap emerged out of that value system as a natural medium to communicate these sentiments. In other words, that way of expressing ideas was faithful to its content...the form itself is edgy and denigrating in a way that I believe is inconsistent with the gospel and biblical truth when compared with how Scripture presents truth. I can find no example in Scripture of the good news of Jesus Christ being presented with the same kind of visceral intensity."

              Scott says that "the only defense Christian rappers present in response to these observations is that they are “redeeming” the art form. I would certainly agree that these men are redeeming the lyrics and lifestyles. From what I can tell, men like Shai Linne and Curtis Allen are godly men, and as I’ve already noted, their lyrics are certainly considerably better than secular rap and even some Christian songs.

              But if a form of music that is inherently denigrating is redeemed, it becomes something different. Simply changing the lyrics, as much of an improvement as that is, is not the kind of change characteristic of “new creatures”"

              I'll need some time to work things out thoroughly but suffice it to say I don't think his argument at all cogent.
              Last edited by Paprika; 01-30-2014, 12:06 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                I've spent some minutes scanning through the posts. Scott hasn't shown how rap is negative during the conversation; the best he did was to link to another post or two he wrote earlier on the subject.

                His main argument against rap is that "the cultural milieu out of which rap was born is un-Christian. It is a culture of denigration, violence, rage, and self-aggrandizement. The aesthetic forms of rap emerged out of that value system as a natural medium to communicate these sentiments. In other words, that way of expressing ideas was faithful to its content...the form itself is edgy and denigrating in a way that I believe is inconsistent with the gospel and biblical truth when compared with how Scripture presents truth. I can find no example in Scripture of the good news of Jesus Christ being presented with the same kind of visceral intensity."
                I recently read something by a scholar who argued that much of the NT is written in informal language of that time, almost close to what might be considered slang in some parts. I wish I could remember exactly where I saw that. (It also would have been relevant a year or so ago when another poster spoke about a fellowship of men he was involved with that believed that everyday speech should be in the language of the King James Bible era.) Needless to say, I would probably be dubious about Scott's claim here.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  I recently read something by a scholar who argued that much of the NT is written in informal language of that time, almost close to what might be considered slang in some parts. I wish I could remember exactly where I saw that. (It also would have been relevant a year or so ago when another poster spoke about a fellowship of men he was involved with that believed that everyday speech should be in the language of the King James Bible era.) Needless to say, I would probably be dubious about Scott's claim here.
                  Interesting that you should mention that. There are cases of this in the OT as well, I believe. For example, Elijah and his mockery of the prophets of Baal, and the king (can't remember which one) that said, "My little finger will be greater than my father's loins," or something like that.
                  I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                    Interesting that you should mention that. There are cases of this in the OT as well, I believe. For example, Elijah and his mockery of the prophets of Baal, and the king (can't remember which one) that said, "My little finger will be greater than my father's loins," or something like that.
                    Good examples. And let's just say that "dung" or "rubbish" are probably not the closest equivalents for the word used in Philippians 3:8.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      Good examples. And let's just say that "dung" or "rubbish" are probably not the closest equivalents for the word used in Philippians 3:8.
                      Yep, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
                      I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok, there are several different arguments that I've seen. Some are worse than others. (For example, I saw one guy argue that because 16th-18th century European culture was the only culture in recent history to be heavily influenced by Christianity, that therefore music in that time period and location is the only kind of music that's acceptable.)
                        Utter non-sequitur and top drawer ethnocentrism if not blatant racism. This kind of non-thinking shouldn't be found in the church.

                        Very basically Scott's argument is this: though the Bible does not give explicit instructions on music styles, it does give instructions on communication. Music is communication. Therefore, what the Bible says concerning communication applies to music.
                        I'd like to see scriptural references, but even if true this still is fallacious as pointed out above.

                        (e.g., rap typically used by one crowd, frequently with promiscuous lyrics)
                        Err, anything and everything can be set to promiscuous lyrics. It's not intrinsic to any one kind of musical style.

                        the cultural origin of the music,
                        So what? Is music utterly outside of God's redeeming power?



                        I am, of course, directing all of this at Mr. Racist Old Man Scared of Music Styles He Didn't Grow Up With and not at Zymologist.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ....and I don't even like rap!*





















                          * - Until such time as I find a really good artist that uses the art form to my particular musical tastes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I guess Paul shouldn't have been speaking on Mars Hill. It was a known place for people to congregate and discuss/worship idols.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "The Music to the Unknown God!"

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Faber, 10-13-2020, 03:13 PM
                              4 responses
                              25 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Faber
                              by Faber
                               
                              Started by Christian3, 10-09-2020, 08:37 AM
                              33 responses
                              190 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Andius
                              by Andius
                               
                              Started by mossrose, 10-07-2020, 08:10 PM
                              6 responses
                              36 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post mossrose  
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, 09-26-2020, 07:50 PM
                              0 responses
                              6 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                              Started by Thoughtful Monk, 09-07-2020, 01:08 PM
                              30 responses
                              378 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                              Working...
                              X