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Christ Crucified

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  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Moderated By: Bill the Cat

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Not sure this belongs in Apologetics. Were you wanting Christian only response, or a free-for-all?
    Hey Bling...

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Shame! A shameful death, right? Dunno why we be so obseesed with pain...

    Leave a comment:


  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by bling View Post
    Some people came back from the dead, did they complain about their death?
    I don't know. Why are you so focused on the pain and the suffering?

    Leave a comment:


  • bling
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    No clue. When I can I'll let you know.
    Some people came back from the dead, did they complain about their death?

    Leave a comment:


  • bling
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Asphyxiation doesn't sound pleasant.
    Is that part of death or dying on the cross before the actual death?

    Leave a comment:


  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by bling View Post
    There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?
    No clue. When I can I'll let you know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Originally posted by bling View Post
    There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?
    Asphyxiation doesn't sound pleasant.

    Leave a comment:


  • bling
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    I meant all the Scriptural ones

    But on to serious matters:


    Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

    Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

    After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”
    There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?

    Leave a comment:


  • bling
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    #4 seems like a straightforward "yes", by the way. We see a number of examples of evangelism in the NT and I do not believe all use the equivalents of any such words.
    I do not think every sermon would be a "Christ Crucified" sermon, especially to those that did not know about Christ. Most of the letters are not sermons, but would have been read as soon as they arrived.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Which completed promise do you mean? Do you mean the general thrust of what had been prophesied, or the specific OT term appropriated in a messianic manner? (I presume you mean the former as the latter stance seems difficult given the nature of OT typology in the NT.)
    The former. But it's not just about promise- I'll just quote the notes to the NET translation of John 17:4 here:
    Or “by finishing” or “by accomplishing.” Jesus now states that he has glorified the Father on earth by finishing (τελειώσας [teleiwsas] is best understood as an adverbial participle of means) the work which the Father had given him to do.

    sn By completing the work. The idea of Jesus being sent into the world on a mission has been mentioned before, significantly in 3:17. It was even alluded to in the immediately preceding verse here (17:3). The completion of the “work” the Father had sent him to accomplish was mentioned by Jesus in 4:34 and 5:36. What is the nature of the “work” the Father has given the Son to accomplish? It involves the Son’s mission to be the Savior of the world, as 3:17 indicates. But this is accomplished specifically through Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross (a thought implied by the reference to the Father “giving” the Son in 3:16). It is not without significance that Jesus’ last word from the cross is “It is completed” (19:30).

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    I meant all the Scriptural ones

    But on to serious matters:


    Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

    Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

    After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”
    Which completed promise do you mean? Do you mean the general thrust of what had been prophesied, or the specific OT term appropriated in a messianic manner? (I presume you mean the former as the latter stance seems difficult given the nature of OT typology in the NT.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Aren't some analogies modalistic?
    I meant all the Scriptural ones

    But on to serious matters:

    This is kind of a difficult passage but my understanding is that he meant it would be finished with his imminent death within the next few seconds. (Otherwise, when would he say it? Nobody was around to hear him at the actual moment of resurrection.)
    Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

    Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

    After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    #4 seems like a straightforward "yes", by the way. We see a number of examples of evangelism in the NT and I do not believe all use the equivalents of any such words.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Aren't some analogies modalistic?
    Yes, but I think he meant in terms of those listed in the OP.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    All of them.
    Aren't some analogies modalistic?

    Leave a comment:

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