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Christ Crucified

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  • Christ Crucified

    Christ Crucified

    1. Is Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom type payment?

    2. Paul preached 18 months in Corinth and said: 1 Cor. 2: 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. So did Paul preach every time on Christ crucified or some on Christ crucified and some on just Christ?

    3. Christ said before his actual death: “It is finished” so was the crucifixion finished or is the going to be with God (death) included in the dying on the cross?

    4. Can you preach: “Christ crucified” and not mention at least one of the following: atonement, atoning sacrifice, ransom, propitiation, expiation, crucified and/or redemption?

    5. How is “preaching a proclaiming of Christ Crucified” differ from “preaching Christ crucified”?

    6. When was the last time you heard a sermon on “Christ Crucified”? What was said and how often is the subject preached in your church?

    7. Is an understanding of Christ crucified an understanding of the milk of the gospel or is it a meaty subject? Why?

    8. How much does the fact that there are only “theories” to explain atonement keep preachers from addressing the subject?

    9. Does your denomination have an “explanation” everyone agrees on for atonement?

    10. What do we learn or not learn about God, Love, Christ, sin, forgiveness, redemption, justification, righteousness, being made holy and the new covenant, by not truly understanding the atonement sacrifice?

  • #2
    Forgive me for not getting to the whole list, but I'd like to focus on #3. This is kind of a difficult passage but my understanding is that he meant it would be finished with his imminent death within the next few seconds. (Otherwise, when would he say it? Nobody was around to hear him at the actual moment of resurrection.)

    I'm not focusing on the others because at this point in time I have no firm conclusions about what atonement metaphor (if any) is best.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Not sure this belongs in Apologetics. Were you wanting Christian only response, or a free-for-all?
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        I'm not focusing on the others because at this point in time I have no firm conclusions about what atonement metaphor (if any) is best.
        All of them.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          All of them.
          Aren't some analogies modalistic?
          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
            Aren't some analogies modalistic?
            Yes, but I think he meant in terms of those listed in the OP.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              #4 seems like a straightforward "yes", by the way. We see a number of examples of evangelism in the NT and I do not believe all use the equivalents of any such words.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                Aren't some analogies modalistic?
                I meant all the Scriptural ones

                But on to serious matters:

                This is kind of a difficult passage but my understanding is that he meant it would be finished with his imminent death within the next few seconds. (Otherwise, when would he say it? Nobody was around to hear him at the actual moment of resurrection.)
                Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

                Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

                After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  I meant all the Scriptural ones

                  But on to serious matters:


                  Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

                  Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

                  After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”
                  Which completed promise do you mean? Do you mean the general thrust of what had been prophesied, or the specific OT term appropriated in a messianic manner? (I presume you mean the former as the latter stance seems difficult given the nature of OT typology in the NT.)
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    Which completed promise do you mean? Do you mean the general thrust of what had been prophesied, or the specific OT term appropriated in a messianic manner? (I presume you mean the former as the latter stance seems difficult given the nature of OT typology in the NT.)
                    The former. But it's not just about promise- I'll just quote the notes to the NET translation of John 17:4 here:
                    Or “by finishing” or “by accomplishing.” Jesus now states that he has glorified the Father on earth by finishing (τελειώσας [teleiwsas] is best understood as an adverbial participle of means) the work which the Father had given him to do.

                    sn By completing the work. The idea of Jesus being sent into the world on a mission has been mentioned before, significantly in 3:17. It was even alluded to in the immediately preceding verse here (17:3). The completion of the “work” the Father had sent him to accomplish was mentioned by Jesus in 4:34 and 5:36. What is the nature of the “work” the Father has given the Son to accomplish? It involves the Son’s mission to be the Savior of the world, as 3:17 indicates. But this is accomplished specifically through Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross (a thought implied by the reference to the Father “giving” the Son in 3:16). It is not without significance that Jesus’ last word from the cross is “It is completed” (19:30).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      #4 seems like a straightforward "yes", by the way. We see a number of examples of evangelism in the NT and I do not believe all use the equivalents of any such words.
                      I do not think every sermon would be a "Christ Crucified" sermon, especially to those that did not know about Christ. Most of the letters are not sermons, but would have been read as soon as they arrived.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        I meant all the Scriptural ones

                        But on to serious matters:


                        Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

                        Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

                        After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”
                        There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bling View Post
                          There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?
                          Asphyxiation doesn't sound pleasant.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by bling View Post
                            There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?
                            No clue. When I can I'll let you know.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              Asphyxiation doesn't sound pleasant.
                              Is that part of death or dying on the cross before the actual death?

                              Comment

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