Joy

[footwasher]

I think you're a bit of a legalist looking for ways to make things difficult. Perhaps it makes you feel more important because it's something you have to do.

The opposition is only expected:

2 Corinthians 4:1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves; 8we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death works in us, but life in you.
13But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, 14knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.15For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.
…..

If the words take root, it will be life.

[Adrift]

Not necessarily. When you truly experience the joy of serving Jesus, it becomes fun, not sacrifice -- and when you DO sacrifice, you count it all joy.

Yep. That's why Paul and Silas were able to sing hymns and pray while in chains in prison, and why church fathers like Ignatius expressed so much joy as he was being taken away to be martyred. I don't think that joy is something that comes to us all the time automatically though. I think it takes giving our cares over to Christ, which is sometimes very hard to do. Well, let me restate that...its the easiest thing to do, but our flesh nature seems to want to hold onto those cares. When we realize that its not about what I can do, but what Christ can do through me, that's when I think we start to let go.

[KingsGambit]

I think you're a bit of a legalist looking for ways to make things difficult. Perhaps it makes you feel more important because it's something you have to do.

IIRC footwasher is the user who said that following Jesus requires giving 100% of what you have to the poor, and when I asked him if he had done that, he said he hadn't fully matured in Christ or something along those lines.

[footwasher]

IIRC footwasher is the user who said that following Jesus requires giving 100% of what you have to the poor, and when I asked him if he had done that, he said he hadn't fully matured in Christ or something along those lines.

Absolutely right.

[Pentecost]

Absolutely right.

Really? May I ask how you came to that conclusion? Is it nuanced at all, or is the vast majority failing to perform a work commanded by God?

[footwasher]

Luke 14:33 "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

One step at a time. First would you agree that the narrow gate Christ taught about is giving up everything and following him?

[Pentecost]

Luke 14:33 "So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

And you see this as a literal expression where in the same section He was speaking of hating ones parents? It seems like an artful use of exaggeration to get across the point that one must be willing and able to fully commit, even if not called to do so. Further, were the disciples sinning by owning clothes, sandals, swords etc? By your interpretation it seems a must, and if Jesus isn't in the business of occasionally exaggerating then have you plucked out your eyes for lusting, or cut your hands to keep them from sinning?

One step at a time. First would you agree that the narrow gate Christ taught about is giving up everything and following him?

Of course if it's one step at a time ignore that if you want.

Matthew 7, because, of course it was structured with a purpose is a collection of teachings first about right action(1~20), then moving onto right belief (20~29) and each parable ends with a warning of disaster. The relevant verses to the gate which you're speaking of are:

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (*Matthew *7:*7-14 ESV)

Nothing in that specifically states that the narrow gate is about giving up everything and following him, only that it is narrow, difficult, and few do it. Must we give up some things? Yes. Must some give up everything? Yes. Must we be willing to give up everything? Yes. Is that what this parable is about? No.

[Cow Poke]

The opposition is only expected:

You need some joy in your life, brother.

[Cow Poke]

I think it depends on context. I am very joyful when I'm laughing in the Spirit, but equally, I know not everyone will, or even wants to express joy in that manner. In fact, I know not all are joyous that I just admitted to doing that, and would be even less if they saw it. But joy can be expressed in any number of ways, it could look like prayer, singing, dancing, shouting, laughing, clapping, sitting with your head bowed... You get the picture.

I'm not saying any of those should be pursued for joy's sake but those can be ways that you see it. No shame in a sober manner.

You can have joy, but while consoling a friend who just lost a loved one, you certainly would not be "laughing in the spirit". So, yeah....

[Cow Poke]

Yep. That's why Paul and Silas were able to sing hymns and pray while in chains in prison, and why church fathers like Ignatius expressed so much joy as he was being taken away to be martyred. I don't think that joy is something that comes to us all the time automatically though.

But, would you consider that it can always "be there", but not always expressed outwardly?

I think it takes giving our cares over to Christ, which is sometimes very hard to do.

And, sometimes, even when we DO give our cares over to Christ, we take them back! I love that old song "take your burdens to the cross and leave them there".

Well, let me restate that...its the easiest thing to do, but our flesh nature seems to want to hold onto those cares. When we realize that its not about what I can do, but what Christ can do through me, that's when I think we start to let go.

.... and Joy comes in!

[Adrift]

But, would you consider that it can always "be there", but not always expressed outwardly?

Absolutely.

[Cow Poke]

Absolutely.

Yeah, you were moving that direction in your post -- shoulda read the whole thing instead of responding AS I read it.

[Cow Poke]

So, to recap, I think joy is not so much about an outward expression (somebody referred earlier in the thread about "looking happy") but about an inward peace - a calm assurance to know that God has everything under control. A confidence that it's more about our eternal residence than our temporal existence.

[mossrose]

And, sometimes, even when we DO give our cares over to Christ, we take them back! I love that old song "take your burdens to the cross and leave them there".

When my daughter was about the same age as The Girl is now, she saw a man with a prosthetic leg walking on the street. She became fearful about losing a limb, and we struggled with her for quite a while having fears going to bed at night. We were already in the habit of praying with our children at bedtime, but prayers with her over this issue did not seem to be helping her get over her fear.

Finally, one night, as she wept, I said, "Let's do a little pretending for a few minutes. You be me, and I'll be you".

She had a teddy bear, and I took it from her and said, "Mama, my bear is torn here on the side. Can you fix it please?"

She said sure, and tried to take it from me. I turned away, clutching the bear. Then I repeated my request. She said yes and tried to take it away again. I wouldn't let her have it. I then asked her a third time, and she said, "I will fix it, but you have to let me have it first."

I gave her the bear, and then I explained to her that God is ready and able to fix our problems and worries, but we have to give them to Him and not hang on to them. The light went on in her head, she smiled and said, "Mama, let's pray again that God will make me not afraid anymore".

So we did. And she wasn't.

[footwasher]

And you see this as a literal expression where in the same section He was speaking of hating ones parents? It seems like an artful use of exaggeration to get across the point that one must be willing and able to fully commit, even if not called to do so. Further, were the disciples sinning by owning clothes, sandals, swords etc? By your interpretation it seems a must, and if Jesus isn't in the business of occasionally exaggerating then have you plucked out your eyes for lusting, or cut your hands to keep them from sinning?

Of course if it's one step at a time ignore that if you want.

If the passages are exaggerations, what is being exaggerated? Gouge out eyes would relate to avoiding lustful gazing, cut off hands to avoid stealing, so would you agree giving up everything relates to not storing earthly treasures? The fact of the matter is that it is a binary, with no exaggerated states: serve God or serve mammon. You can't serve both.

Would you agree that owning clothes, sandals, swords are not serving mammon if they are used to do God's work?

Put it this way: don't own clothes because you see them as a commodity, indicator of wealth, own them because they are a resource, equipment.

Matthew 7, because, of course it was structured with a purpose is a collection of teachings first about right action(1~20), then moving onto right belief (20~29) and each parable ends with a warning of disaster. The relevant verses to the gate which you're speaking of are:


Nothing in that specifically states that the narrow gate is about giving up everything and following him, only that it is narrow, difficult, and few do it. Must we give up some things? Yes. Must some give up everything? Yes. Must we be willing to give up everything? Yes. Is that what this parable is about? No.

Do you find it strange that Jesus required the rich young ruler to give up everything and follow him? Would you agree that another binary state exists: work for worldly treasure or work for heavenly treasures? Was that not the obstacle that rich men found especially difficult to overcome, accustomed as they were to the trappings of wealth? The narrow gate becomes a needle eye!

Matthew 19: 23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

The sum of the prohibitions in Law are avoid idolatry, chasing after gods that represent worldly goals. Israel was in the world, a sell out, and the world oppressed her. She received her payback, but it was at a price. Moses took Israel out of Egypt but couldn't take Egypt out of Israel.

Colossians 3:5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

Each god in Egypt represented a sphere of activity, like wealth, love, fertility, knowledge, etc. Parallels exist in all pagan religions. All of law was set up to oppose idolatry. Why do you think the Jubilee was formed?


BTW, hating is a hebraism for loving less. Jacob didn't hate Leah, he just loved her less.

You need some joy in your life, brother.

Teachers are going to be judged more strictly than the flock. All it took was a little slip to relegate Moses to a nonplaying team member, banned from entering God's rest. It was a single strike.