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The Acid Test.

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  • The Acid Test.

    "Did King David lose his salvation while in adultery and murder and BEFORE he repented - yes or no?"

    Now I answered the question no. So I failed this test.

    Two reasons I answered no. One, the holy scripture states, ". . . the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward." And second, David did not ask that the God's spirit be returned to him, but rather, ". . . take not thy holy spirit from me."

    If the question was could David have lost his salvation while in adultery and murder having NOT repented. I would have to answer in that case, yes. But that is not the history.

    The Acid Test is a concoction of the hyper-Arminianism holiness preacher Dan Corner. Here
    6
    yes
    16.67%
    1
    no
    83.33%
    5

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by 37818; 01-03-2015, 05:42 PM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    We don't have an exact set of criterion for what would have saved people in the OT so I don't think there's any way to accurately answer this question without speculating.

    I am Arminian like Corner and agree with his general stance against easy-believism, but he is way over the top in a number of ways.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Often I hear his "return unto me the joy of my salvation" used in a sense that he had lost his salvation, but as KG pointed out, we really don't have a full understanding of what "salvation" was in the OT, other than "faith". I think he had lost the JOY of his salvation, not necessarily the salvation - whatever that entails.

      I know a lot of Christians who appear to have lost the "joy" of their salvation.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        We don't have an exact set of criterion for what would have saved people in the OT so I don't think there's any way to accurately answer this question without speculating.

        I am Arminian like Corner and agree with his general stance against easy-believism, but he is way over the top in a number of ways.
        I believe in easy believism (Matthew 11:28-30). That it is God who does the saving and God how does the keeping. So if I'm wrong about eternal security of the believer. I am still right that it is God who does the saving. We do not save ourselves. While we are self willed beings (having what we call free will), we need God to save us, because we cannot save ourselves.

        I think it is worthy of discussion. To maybe understand and acknowledge views we disagree with. It dos not have to be heated debate. Though some cannot avoid it.
        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

        Comment


        • #5
          The Catholic Church holds that mortal sin kills the soul by depriving a person of the grace needed for salvation, and it also holds that all the patriarchs in the Old Testament are now in Heaven.

          The reason is that David likely had what's called perfect contrition for his sins. That means that he was sorry for having committed them (insofar as he knew of them), and repented of them seeking to live a life free of them, all out of love for God rather than fear of God's righteous judgments. This suffices to obtain the graces that would ordinarily only have been available to them in the yearly Passover sacrifice, or the Sacrament of Penance available now.
          Last edited by Leonhard; 01-03-2015, 06:41 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Often I hear his "return unto me the joy of my salvation" used in a sense that he had lost his salvation, but as KG pointed out, we really don't have a full understanding of what "salvation" was in the OT, other than "faith". I think he had lost the JOY of his salvation, not necessarily the salvation - whatever that entails.

            I know a lot of Christians who appear to have lost the "joy" of their salvation.
            Some of us, do have opinions on this. I do. I believe King David was saved, but not in that time born again, not yet possessing eternal life as post Pentecost Christians do. My view.
            . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              I believe in easy believism (Matthew 11:28-30). That it is God who does the saving and God how does the keeping. So if I'm wrong about eternal security of the believer. I am still right that it is God who does the saving. We do not save ourselves. While we are self willed beings (having what we call free will), we need God to save us, because we cannot save ourselves.

              I think it is worthy of discussion. To maybe understand and acknowledge views we disagree with. It dos not have to be heated debate. Though some cannot avoid it.
              But it's like somebody offering you a very valuable gift -- you have to be willing to receive it.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Some of us, do have opinions on this. I do. I believe King David was saved, but not in that time born again, not yet possessing eternal life as post Pentecost Christians do. My view.
                Wouldn't this contradict Jesus saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all alive? Or the appearances of Moses and Elias during the Transfiguration?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  The Catholic Church holds both that mortal sin kills the soul and deprives a person of the grace needed for salvation, and it also holds that all the patriarchs in the Old Testament are now in Heaven.

                  The reason is that David likely had what's called perfect contrition for his sins. That means that he was sorry for having committed them (insofar as he knew of them), and repented of them seeking to live a life free of them, all out of love for God rather than fear of God's righteous judgments. This suffices to obtain the graces that would ordinarily only have been available to them in the yearly Passover sacrifice, or the Sacrament of Penance available now.
                  Those are other nuances in differences in our faith groups understandings. Dan Corner is a former Catholic BTW.

                  Protestants refer to the two Christian observances as sacraments. From my baptist perspective, there are no sacraments as such. Also there are free will baptists who hold to an Arminianism view point.
                  . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    I believe in easy believism (Matthew 11:28-30). That it is God who does the saving and God how does the keeping. So if I'm wrong about eternal security of the believer. I am still right that it is God who does the saving. We do not save ourselves. While we are self willed beings (having what we call free will), we need God to save us, because we cannot save ourselves.

                    I think it is worthy of discussion. To maybe understand and acknowledge views we disagree with. It dos not have to be heated debate. Though some cannot avoid it.
                    I'd be interested in discussing this and seeing if we can sharpen iron with iron.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I would say no, but I take the author's point that holy living and living out holiness is vital for Christians, we are set apart and should look it.
                      Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Wouldn't this contradict Jesus saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all alive? Or the appearances of Moses and Elias during the Transfiguration?
                        Yes, one can understand it that way. I do not see it that way, as being contradictory. I'm looking at it from the view of possessing eternal life so to go into heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8) after leaving the body, as opposed to going to the nether world, the realm of the dead, sheol, even in its upper compartment (Psalm 86:13; Luke 16:19-31 as being an actual event, Deuteronomy 32:22, the upper compartment then where paradise was Luke 23:43 where Jesus also went in those three days).
                        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          But it's like somebody offering you a very valuable gift -- you have to be willing to receive it.
                          That is a common Christian understanding. And salvation is that type of gift. I am of the opinion that the reason persons do not accept this gift, they really do no understand it (2 Corinthians 4:3). This would include apparent former professing Christians. Again my view.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Salvation is not something that comes and goes each time you sin and are forgiven, but rather it depends on whether you name is in the Lamb's Book of Life.
                            "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              I'd be interested in discussing this and seeing if we can sharpen iron with iron.
                              Is there a particular facet of Arminianism - Calvinism - Fullerism - etc. That you would like to compare? I do not hold the Arminianism nor the Calvinism view. I believe in total depravity of man (Romans 3:11). In conditional election. Unmerited election, the election being wholly God's. I believe in resistible grace. Universe purchase of all men by the payment Christ made on the cross. And that God keeps those whom He saves. My understanding, my view.

                              So where would you like to go with this? Or do you have another issue having to do with this of more interest?
                              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                              Comment

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