Originally posted by 37818
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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What to expect from God and Apostasy
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"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThat's the problem here; the definitions used are just going to shift around to fit the theological suppositions. If somebody professing Christianity leaves after a number of years, we just say they were not a "true" believer to begin with, no matter what it previously seemed.
Eternal life is to know God. Not just know about God. But to know God. As Jesus addressed His Father saying, ". . . And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." -- John 17:3.
Can one who really knew God, then some how not know God? Explain. Can eternal life possessed be lost? (1 John 5:12; 2 Corinthians 13:5)
You see, God is the one who makes us into Christians. Not our own doings. (John 1:12, 13; 2 Corinthians 5:17)
Ask any former professing Christian, how he/she would have explained how to become a Christian. Listen carefully what they say one must do.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostWhy did you cut off the verse in Heb 6:4? Maybe you could explain your thinking on how "...those who were once enlightened" (and)... made Partakers of the Holy Ghost..." would not have been in Christ at some point?
Again, "those who" are not a single individual. Does preaching of the gospel enlighten? Yes or no?
Jesus taught, ". . . when he[the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -- John 16:. . . 8-11. And is it not written? ". . . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." -- Acts 7:51? Christ died for all did He not? (John 15:2, ". . . every branch in me . . . ," 6). Is it that you believe if Christ died for all, all are merely saved to become lost? (1 John 2:2)
Now here is the part, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . . ." Actually reads [according to the Greek], "And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . ." In either case the implication being they had gotten saved. But no. If after hearing the gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, and they turn away. They are not going to be redirected into repentance. Nothing says they had repented, changed their mind and gotten saved. Nothing there says that.
Again verse 9, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, . . . ."Last edited by 37818; 12-23-2014, 12:38 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostGladly.
Again, "those who" are not a single individual. Does preaching of the gospel enlighten? Yes or no?
Jesus taught, ". . . when he[the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -- John 16:. . . 8-11. And is it not written? ". . . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." -- Acts 7:51? Christ died for all did He not? (John 15:2, ". . . every branch in me . . . ," 6). Is it that you believe if Christ died for all, all are merely saved to become lost? (1 John 2:2)
Now here is the part, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . . ." Actually reads [according to the Greek], "And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . ." In either case the implication being they had gotten saved. But no. If after hearing the gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, and they turn away. They are not going to be redirected into repentance. Nothing says they had repented, changed their mind and gotten saved. Nothing there says that.
Again verse 9, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, . . . ."
http://kelleys4christ.files.wordpres...-heb-6-4-6.pdf
* I caution the use of the "Theological Analysis" section that is heavily Calvinistic (although he tries to deflect the obvious Calvinistic bent with an inconsequential modifier of the Calvinist position). The dismissal of the Arminian position is completely unscholarly, But the Greek analysis is very good.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostGladly.
Again, "those who" are not a single individual. Does preaching of the gospel enlighten? Yes or no?
Jesus taught, ". . . when he[the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -- John 16:. . . 8-11. And is it not written? ". . . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." -- Acts 7:51? Christ died for all did He not? (John 15:2, ". . . every branch in me . . . ," 6). Is it that you believe if Christ died for all, all are merely saved to become lost? (1 John 2:2)
Now here is the part, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . . ." Actually reads [according to the Greek], "And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . ." In either case the implication being they had gotten saved. But no.
Originally posted by Heb 5:11-14Warning Against Apostasy
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
Originally posted by Heb 6:1,2 ESVTherefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance]/b] from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
The author states he's moving past the "basics" of the faith (i.e. the hows and wherefores of initial salvation) on to maturing and triumphing in the faith...and the dangers therefore if you do not.
If after hearing the gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, and they turn away. They are not going to be redirected into repentance. Nothing says they had repented, changed their mind and gotten saved. Nothing there says that.
Again verse 9, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, . . . ."Last edited by Littlejoe; 12-23-2014, 09:16 AM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostSo your read is that if someone hears the Gospel and initially resists the calling of the Holy Spirit that they will never get another chance? I just can't believe that, because if I do, then I am doomed and I am currently living a lie.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI actually went through my seminary's library a couple weeks ago and looked at how most all scholarly commentaries approached Hebrews and the near-unanimous consensus was that it was a five-part warning series (the five warnings are clearly interrelated) against allowing any repentance at all. The reference to Esau in Hebrews 12 is a descriptor of one who wants to repent but is actively not allowed to. (The church has tried to find ways out of this for the last 2000 years; I think the only intellectually honest way not to turn it into a prooftext for Novatianism is to allow for rhetoric/hyperbole.) Clearly the issue of rebaptism is acontextual to this; at least, I don't see how it fits in chapter 6 in particular. The agricultural metaphor following 6:4-6 especially does not fit a mere prohibition of rebaptism. (My source for the claim about the church understanding it as baptism acontextually is Ben Witherington's commentary on Hebrews.)
I don't see how John 6:37 is inapplicable, as it suggests that Jesus would never turn away a would-be disciple this side of the eschaton, even if they were a prior apostate.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhere are you seeing it as a mere prohibition of rebaptism?
You're assuming that an apostate would return."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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No, I mean that this verse could be invoked in a case where one wanted to return but he (or others) thought this might be disallowed due to Hebrews (i.e. Novatian). In other words, I don't think Hebrews 6:4-6 should be used as a basis for closing the church doors.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI don't consider what Novatian was combating to be apostasy. Offering incense to save one's life is not a change in belief or false teaching, but being ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pacian_3_letter3.htmLast edited by KingsGambit; 12-23-2014, 01:38 PM."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI agree, but is this cause for refusing readmission for the rest of one's life? The obvious counterexample seems to be Peter, who was ashamed of Christ. We know from Pacian that Novatian argued this was inapplicable because it was before the passion, but this does not seem strong:
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pacian_3_letter3.htmEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostNot sure why you're asking me this. I don't agree with Novatian.
At the same time, I think it's difficult to entirely separate this incident from the topic of apostasy altogether, especially because Novatian heavily invoked these verses, and I would still argue that the general thrust of the Hebrews warnings warn against a sort of relapse, either to Judaism, or to apathy (I've heard both suggestions)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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