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What to expect from God and Apostasy

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Well it does say, ". . . and have tasted of the heavenly gift, . . ." But does that mean what you think it means? What do you think it means?

    Consider the following ". . . They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted [thereof], he would not drink. . . ." -- Matthew 27:34.

    While there is a difference in grammar, it is the same word, accusative in the plural in Hebrews 6:4 and nominative in the singular in Matthew 27:34. (Hebrew 6:4 is not talking about any one individual. ". . . those . . .")

    But the writer goes on to say, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (v.9) What was spoken of was of "those" who do not obtain salvation. Christ died for all (John 15:2, 6).
    Why did you cut off the verse in Heb 6:4? Maybe you could explain your thinking on how "...those who were once enlightened" (and)... made Partakers of the Holy Ghost..." would not have been in Christ at some point?
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      That's the problem here; the definitions used are just going to shift around to fit the theological suppositions. If somebody professing Christianity leaves after a number of years, we just say they were not a "true" believer to begin with, no matter what it previously seemed.
      So you think. It is easy to prove one way or the other. Really.

      Eternal life is to know God. Not just know about God. But to know God. As Jesus addressed His Father saying, ". . . And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." -- John 17:3.

      Can one who really knew God, then some how not know God? Explain. Can eternal life possessed be lost? (1 John 5:12; 2 Corinthians 13:5)

      You see, God is the one who makes us into Christians. Not our own doings. (John 1:12, 13; 2 Corinthians 5:17)

      Ask any former professing Christian, how he/she would have explained how to become a Christian. Listen carefully what they say one must do.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
        Why did you cut off the verse in Heb 6:4? Maybe you could explain your thinking on how "...those who were once enlightened" (and)... made Partakers of the Holy Ghost..." would not have been in Christ at some point?
        Gladly.

        Again, "those who" are not a single individual. Does preaching of the gospel enlighten? Yes or no?

        Jesus taught, ". . . when he[the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -- John 16:. . . 8-11. And is it not written? ". . . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." -- Acts 7:51? Christ died for all did He not? (John 15:2, ". . . every branch in me . . . ," 6). Is it that you believe if Christ died for all, all are merely saved to become lost? (1 John 2:2)

        Now here is the part, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . . ." Actually reads [according to the Greek], "And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . ." In either case the implication being they had gotten saved. But no. If after hearing the gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, and they turn away. They are not going to be redirected into repentance. Nothing says they had repented, changed their mind and gotten saved. Nothing there says that.
        Again verse 9, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, . . . ."
        Last edited by 37818; 12-23-2014, 12:38 AM.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Gladly.

          Again, "those who" are not a single individual. Does preaching of the gospel enlighten? Yes or no?

          Jesus taught, ". . . when he[the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -- John 16:. . . 8-11. And is it not written? ". . . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." -- Acts 7:51? Christ died for all did He not? (John 15:2, ". . . every branch in me . . . ," 6). Is it that you believe if Christ died for all, all are merely saved to become lost? (1 John 2:2)

          Now here is the part, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . . ." Actually reads [according to the Greek], "And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . ." In either case the implication being they had gotten saved. But no. If after hearing the gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, and they turn away. They are not going to be redirected into repentance. Nothing says they had repented, changed their mind and gotten saved. Nothing there says that.
          Again verse 9, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, . . . ."
          Can I suggest* this article?
          http://kelleys4christ.files.wordpres...-heb-6-4-6.pdf

          * I caution the use of the "Theological Analysis" section that is heavily Calvinistic (although he tries to deflect the obvious Calvinistic bent with an inconsequential modifier of the Calvinist position). The dismissal of the Arminian position is completely unscholarly, But the Greek analysis is very good.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Gladly.
            Again, "those who" are not a single individual. Does preaching of the gospel enlighten? Yes or no?
            No, of course not! The Holy Spirit enlightens. The preaching is just a vehicle for Him to drive.
            Jesus taught, ". . . when he[the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -- John 16:. . . 8-11. And is it not written? ". . . ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: . . ." -- Acts 7:51? Christ died for all did He not? (John 15:2, ". . . every branch in me . . . ," 6). Is it that you believe if Christ died for all, all are merely saved to become lost? (1 John 2:2)
            I'm sorry, I have little patience for those that cherry pick a bunch of partial verses to argue from while ignoring the surrounding context of the verse in question. It's called "Proof Texting" maybe you've heard of it? Yes, scripture must agree with scripture, but my friend, THIS bit of mishmash doesn't prove anything really...

            Now here is the part, "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . . ." Actually reads [according to the Greek], "And they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; . . ." In either case the implication being they had gotten saved. But no.
            But yes! You need to look at the context, he doesn't just start talking about this without a setup. Where is that found? Well he starts in Ch 5 verses 11-14...
            Originally posted by Heb 5:11-14
            Warning Against Apostasy
            11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
            So, he begins by telling them they are having to be taught the basics of salvation and righteous living, and they need to continue to pursue maturity else they will be in danger of permanently falling away. Then, in the next verses he finishes his setup by explaining that the following warnings (of Apostasy in vss. 4-6) will result if they do not leave their infancy of faith and seek to grow and mature.
            Originally posted by Heb 6:1,2 ESV
            Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance]/b] from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
            Bold Emphasis Mine

            The author states he's moving past the "basics" of the faith (i.e. the hows and wherefores of initial salvation) on to maturing and triumphing in the faith...and the dangers therefore if you do not.
            If after hearing the gospel, resisting the Holy Spirit, and they turn away. They are not going to be redirected into repentance. Nothing says they had repented, changed their mind and gotten saved. Nothing there says that.
            Again verse 9, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, . . . ."
            So your read is that if someone hears the Gospel and initially resists the calling of the Holy Spirit that they will never get another chance? I just can't believe that, because if I do, then I am doomed and I am currently living a lie.
            Last edited by Littlejoe; 12-23-2014, 09:16 AM.
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              So your read is that if someone hears the Gospel and initially resists the calling of the Holy Spirit that they will never get another chance? I just can't believe that, because if I do, then I am doomed and I am currently living a lie.
              As would the Apostle Paul...
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                I actually went through my seminary's library a couple weeks ago and looked at how most all scholarly commentaries approached Hebrews and the near-unanimous consensus was that it was a five-part warning series (the five warnings are clearly interrelated) against allowing any repentance at all. The reference to Esau in Hebrews 12 is a descriptor of one who wants to repent but is actively not allowed to. (The church has tried to find ways out of this for the last 2000 years; I think the only intellectually honest way not to turn it into a prooftext for Novatianism is to allow for rhetoric/hyperbole.) Clearly the issue of rebaptism is acontextual to this; at least, I don't see how it fits in chapter 6 in particular. The agricultural metaphor following 6:4-6 especially does not fit a mere prohibition of rebaptism. (My source for the claim about the church understanding it as baptism acontextually is Ben Witherington's commentary on Hebrews.)
                Where are you seeing it as a mere prohibition of rebaptism?
                I don't see how John 6:37 is inapplicable, as it suggests that Jesus would never turn away a would-be disciple this side of the eschaton, even if they were a prior apostate.
                You're assuming that an apostate would return.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Where are you seeing it as a mere prohibition of rebaptism?
                  I don't see it that way, but I've read multiple scholars who claim that's exactly how it was generally interpreted from the 2nd-4th centuries.

                  You're assuming that an apostate would return.
                  No, I mean that this verse could be invoked in a case where one wanted to return but he (or others) thought this might be disallowed due to Hebrews (i.e. Novatian). In other words, I don't think Hebrews 6:4-6 should be used as a basis for closing the church doors.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    No, I mean that this verse could be invoked in a case where one wanted to return but he (or others) thought this might be disallowed due to Hebrews (i.e. Novatian). In other words, I don't think Hebrews 6:4-6 should be used as a basis for closing the church doors.
                    I don't consider what Novatian was combating to be apostasy. Offering incense to save one's life is not a change in belief or false teaching, but being ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      I don't consider what Novatian was combating to be apostasy. Offering incense to save one's life is not a change in belief or false teaching, but being ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
                      I agree, but is this cause for refusing readmission for the rest of one's life? The obvious counterexample seems to be Peter, who was ashamed of Christ. We know from Pacian that Novatian argued this was inapplicable because it was before the passion, but this does not seem strong:

                      http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pacian_3_letter3.htm
                      Last edited by KingsGambit; 12-23-2014, 01:38 PM.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        I agree, but is this cause for refusing readmission for the rest of one's life? The obvious counterexample seems to be Peter, who was ashamed of Christ. We know from Pacian that Novatian argued this was inapplicable because it was before the passion, but this does not seem strong:

                        http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/pacian_3_letter3.htm
                        Not sure why you're asking me this. I don't agree with Novatian.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Not sure why you're asking me this. I don't agree with Novatian.
                          I misread one word in your post, and that made all the difference. Mea culpa.

                          At the same time, I think it's difficult to entirely separate this incident from the topic of apostasy altogether, especially because Novatian heavily invoked these verses, and I would still argue that the general thrust of the Hebrews warnings warn against a sort of relapse, either to Judaism, or to apathy (I've heard both suggestions).
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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