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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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A Question for Messianic Jews
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Last edited by robrecht; 12-02-2014, 11:36 AM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYou know, I find this very interesting, because it doesn't seem like anyone has any problems with atheist Jews or Buddhist Jews, or even a Scientologist Jew, but if you're a Christian Jew, well that's something different altogether!
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThe government of Israel, so I'm told, and the great majority of Jews, do not consider messianic Jews to be Jews, but followers of 'Pauline Christianity'.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI first became aware of 'the other kind', ie, Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, back in the late 70s, and I loved listening to their music. Some traditional, ie, Gentile, Christians may have seen this as a little controversial in that they did not join one of the traditional churches or fully convert. Other traditional Christians thought maybe this was some kind of eschatological sign of the coming end of the world. I presume this was the original sense of 'messianic Jews'. The government of Israel, so I'm told, and the great majority of Jews, do not consider messianic Jews to be Jews, but followers of 'Pauline Christianity'.
Traditional Christians who somehow convert to being Messianic Jews--I'm not sure when this movement or idea began, but I assume it is more recent. I have no idea who they look to as accepting their supposed conversion to Judaism, but I suspect it is just an affectation of proclaimed self-identity and Internet fantasy. But I think it is genuinely good to want to better understand Jesus in his real historical context. Jesus was, and still is, a Jew. And maybe it is also a good thing to rebuke the traditional Christian groups by not wanting to self-identify as Roman Catholic or Southern Baptist or Backwoods Baptist or whatever. But whatever is worthwhile in rebuking the errors of the traditional Christian denominations is probably mixed in with some shallow or delusional affectation that may coincide with the idea that people can easily change their identity.
That's just my take, but I'm open to learning more from people who will contribute to this thread, especially any messianic Jews around here who can give a better account of their experience.
The above verse comes to mind when anyone proclaims the bolded. I think our focus should be on striving to know Christ spiritually as new creatures. The outward distinctions of Jew or Gentile, learned or unlearned, rich or poor, are lost sight of in the higher life of those who are dead in Christ's death, and alive with Him in the new life of His resurrection. I think, to Paul, and likewise ought to be to us as well, Christ is now regarded as far above all national and Jewish limitations, and is the principle of spiritual life in the heart of every Christian.
Jesus existed before Jewishness existed, and in his glorified state, I think he has returned to His former glory.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI first became aware of 'the other kind', ie, Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, back in the late 70s, and I loved listening to their music. Some traditional, ie, Gentile, Christians may have seen this as a little controversial in that they did not join one of the traditional churches or fully convert. Other traditional Christians thought maybe this was some kind of eschatological sign of the coming end of the world. I presume this was the original sense of 'messianic Jews'. The government of Israel, so I'm told, and the great majority of Jews, do not consider messianic Jews to be Jews, but followers of 'Pauline Christianity'.
Traditional Christians who somehow convert to being Messianic Jews--I'm not sure when this movement or idea began, but I assume it is more recent. I have no idea who they look to as accepting their supposed conversion to Judaism, but I suspect it is just an affectation of proclaimed self-identity and Internet fantasy. But I think it is genuinely good to want to better understand Jesus in his real historical context. Jesus was, and still is, a Jew. And maybe it is also a good thing to rebuke the traditional Christian groups by not wanting to self-identify as Roman Catholic or Southern Baptist or Backwoods Baptist or whatever. But whatever is worthwhile in rebuking the errors of the traditional Christian denominations is probably mixed in with some shallow or delusional affectation that may coincide with the idea that people can easily change their identity.
It ended up being a FASCINATING visit, as he conducted his service with periodic pauses to explain to us Gentiles what was going on, and why. He was incredibly gracious.
That's just my take, but I'm open to learning more from people who will contribute to this thread, especially any messianic Jews around here who can give a better account of their experience.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI've had experiences with two different kinds of Messianic Jew.
One was the Christian who, for whatever reason, got into a form of "replacement theology", and they tended to be a bit uppity like they have figured out something "regular Christians" haven't quite gotten. My eldest daughter's in-laws are like this, and have taken on Jewish names, and dabble in Jewish culture.
The other kind of Messianic Jew I have experienced is an actual Jew who has converted to Christianity, and sees Christ as the Messiah for whom they have been looking. Both of the Messianic Jews of this type that I know are very much excited about winning people to Christ, and living in the grace and richness of the New Testament.
Neither of these types of Messianic Jew, in my own experience, are anywhere near as "combative" or arrogant as the Xtians I mentioned in the OP that this one copies.
Traditional Christians who somehow convert to being Messianic Jews--I'm not sure when this movement or idea began, but I assume it is more recent. I have no idea who they look to as accepting their supposed conversion to Judaism, but I suspect it is just an affectation of proclaimed self-identity and Internet fantasy. But I think it is genuinely good to want to better understand Jesus in his real historical context. Jesus was, and still is, a Jew. And maybe it is also a good thing to rebuke the traditional Christian groups by not wanting to self-identify as Roman Catholic or Southern Baptist or Backwoods Baptist or whatever. But whatever is worthwhile in rebuking the errors of the traditional Christian denominations is probably mixed in with some shallow or delusional affectation that may coincide with the idea that people can easily change their identity.
That's just my take, but I'm open to learning more from people who will contribute to this thread, especially any messianic Jews around here who can give a better account of their experience.
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View PostMessianic Jews observe Torah like no pork, Succoth, Yom Kippur, etc. vs. the perception of Gentile Christians who eat pork, celebrate Christmas and Easter, etc. The difference may be something like this:
1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised (MESSIANIC JEW). Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised (GENTILE CHRISTIAN).
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Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised (MESSIANIC JEW). Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised (GENTILE CHRISTIAN).
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI'm wondering why a Christian would self identify as an Messianic Jew rather than a Christian.
I don't really need a lesson in the etymology (OR entomology) of the term, but it almost seems to imply "I'm better than a Christian" or "special knowledge" or some level of "I'm not like the rest of you".
My experience in the past with Twebbers who identify as Messianic Jews has been that they "know things" the rest of us do not know, or in some way are superior to the rest of us. They also have seemed to be a bit more combative than "Christians".
I'm sure there's a much better explanation, and my experience is simply myopic and/or based on anecdotes.
So, why would somebody identify themselves as "Messianic Jew" rather than "Christian"?
1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised (MESSIANIC JEW). Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised (GENTILE CHRISTIAN).
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostHuh? What truth are they meaning? If it isn't the Christ {Messiah}? (John 8:44, 32, 36.)
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYeah, I remember the first time my granddaughter told me her grampa (her daddy's father) was "Jewish", I said, "say WHAT?!?!?!" They "became" Messianic Jews after my daughter married their son, and they began to hate me because I was a Baptist Pastor who "wasn't preaching the truth".
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