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A Question for Messianic Jews

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  • #16
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I first became aware of 'the other kind', ie, Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, back in the late 70s, and I loved listening to their music. Some traditional, ie, Gentile, Christians may have seen this as a little controversial in that they did not join one of the traditional churches or fully convert. Other traditional Christians thought maybe this was some kind of eschatological sign of the coming end of the world. I presume this was the original sense of 'messianic Jews'. The government of Israel, so I'm told, and the great majority of Jews, do not consider messianic Jews to be Jews, but followers of 'Pauline Christianity'.

    Traditional Christians who somehow convert to being Messianic Jews--I'm not sure when this movement or idea began, but I assume it is more recent. I have no idea who they look to as accepting their supposed conversion to Judaism, but I suspect it is just an affectation of proclaimed self-identity and Internet fantasy. But I think it is genuinely good to want to better understand Jesus in his real historical context. Jesus was, and still is, a Jew. And maybe it is also a good thing to rebuke the traditional Christian groups by not wanting to self-identify as Roman Catholic or Southern Baptist or Backwoods Baptist or whatever. But whatever is worthwhile in rebuking the errors of the traditional Christian denominations is probably mixed in with some shallow or delusional affectation that may coincide with the idea that people can easily change their identity.

    That's just my take, but I'm open to learning more from people who will contribute to this thread, especially any messianic Jews around here who can give a better account of their experience.
    "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer." (2Cor. 5:16).

    The above verse comes to mind when anyone proclaims the bolded. I think our focus should be on striving to know Christ spiritually as new creatures. The outward distinctions of Jew or Gentile, learned or unlearned, rich or poor, are lost sight of in the higher life of those who are dead in Christ's death, and alive with Him in the new life of His resurrection. I think, to Paul, and likewise ought to be to us as well, Christ is now regarded as far above all national and Jewish limitations, and is the principle of spiritual life in the heart of every Christian.

    Jesus existed before Jewishness existed, and in his glorified state, I think he has returned to His former glory.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      The government of Israel, so I'm told, and the great majority of Jews, do not consider messianic Jews to be Jews, but followers of 'Pauline Christianity'.
      You know, I find this very interesting, because it doesn't seem like anyone has any problems with atheist Jews or Buddhist Jews, or even a Scientologist Jew, but if you're a Christian Jew, well that's something different altogether!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        You know, I find this very interesting, because it doesn't seem like anyone has any problems with atheist Jews or Buddhist Jews, or even a Scientologist Jew, but if you're a Christian Jew, well that's something different altogether!
        Could be the spirit of the Anti-Christ.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          Could be the spirit of the Anti-Christ.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer." (2Cor. 5:16).

            The above verse comes to mind when anyone proclaims the bolded. I think our focus should be on striving to know Christ spiritually as new creatures. The outward distinctions of Jew or Gentile, learned or unlearned, rich or poor, are lost sight of in the higher life of those who are dead in Christ's death, and alive with Him in the new life of His resurrection. I think, to Paul, and likewise ought to be to us as well, Christ is now regarded as far above all national and Jewish limitations, and is the principle of spiritual life in the heart of every Christian.

            Jesus existed before Jewishness existed, and in his glorified state, I think he has returned to His former glory.
            I think the verse from 2nd Corinthians is referring to Paul's previous understanding of the role of the Messiah from a human perspective, prior to his subsequuent experience of the risen Christ, after which he accepted and helped develop a much more transcendent and divine christology. When you yourself are raised from the dead in the glory of Christ, do you expect that you will no longer remember your hometown, your friends and family members? Of course not, right? Why should we forget or ignore this about Jesus?
            Last edited by robrecht; 12-02-2014, 12:36 PM.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              I think the verse from 2nd Corinthians is referring to Paul's previous understanding of the role of the Messiah from a human perspective, subsequent to his experience of the risen Christ, after which he accepted and helped develop a much more transcendent and divine christology.
              I agree, but I think the verse can applied in the manner I am using it as well, especially since the distinction of Jew and Gentile in Christ is abolished to make way for the new man or third humanity.

              When you yourself are raised from the dead in the glory of Christ, do you expect that you will no longer remember your hometown, your friends and family members? Of course not, right? Why should we forget or ignore this about Jesus?
              I don't think my nationality will hold much significance in the glorified state, if any at all. I don't think we should ignore the fact that Jesus WAS Jewish, but I think to see Jesus/God as Jewish now would be wrongheaded as Jesus existed before Jewishness existed.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                I agree, but I think the verse can applied in the manner I am using it as well, especially since the distinction of Jew and Gentile in Christ is abolished to make way for the new man or third humanity.

                I don't think my nationality will hold much significance in the glorified state, if any at all. I don't think we should ignore the fact that Jesus WAS Jewish, but I think to see Jesus/God as Jewish now would be wrongheaded as Jesus existed before Jewishness existed.
                I am not saying how much significance we should attribute to the various details of Jesus' earthly existence. What about Jesus' humanity, would you say that Jesus is no longer human because the second person of the Trinity pre-existed humanity?
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  A "difference" is not necessary, because He has broken down the middle wall of partition between us....
                  Source: Ephesians 2

                  11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  I think when Paul says...
                  Source: KJV

                  1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised (MESSIANIC JEW). Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised (GENTILE CHRISTIAN).

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  ...he means, if you're a Gentile, you're probably better of remaining a Gentile and not taking on more of the Law than you have to, since if you fail to live up to it then it's counted against you:
                  Source: KJV

                  Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  That similar attitude exists in Judaism, full conversion isn't necessary, you can be a righteous Gentile only observing some of the Laws, mainly Moral and Judicial.

                  However Paul telling Jews not to become uncircumcised would mean not abandoning other parts of Torah like Ceremonial Laws they are already observing as Jews. For example, Paul is telling Jews they shouldn't start eating pork and being like Gentiles just because they become Christians. This is also reflected here:
                  Source: KJV

                  Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Thus the "broken partition" as such doesn't mean there still won't be circumcised Jews who observe all applicable Torah, and uncircumcised Gentiles who only observe some of it. It means that uncircumcised Gentiles are able to be graffed in to share in promises of circumcised Jews: 2 Olive Trees, Jewish/natural and Gentile/wild, both united in Jesus.
                  Source: KJV

                  Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

                  Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  So outside of what the Bible says we can see two extremes: Judaizers who insist on circumcision and/or fully converting to become Jews, and Gentilzers/Replacement Theologians who insist on abandoning full observance of Torah.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                    I think when Paul says...
                    Johnny,

                    The biggest problem I have with your "analysis" is that you seem to take a small section of Scripture, then go on a rabbit hunt to find anything else that might be related to it.

                    The FIRST thing I believe we need to do is to look at the CONTEXT of the passage in question -- not just the "verse", but the "paragraph" (other verses in that same text that are directly related to the verse or verses in question). In the case of Ephesians, we would take the letter as a whole.

                    We need to look at who is writing, to WHOM he is writing, what situation is being addressed, and how the audience to whom he is speaking would understand what he was saying. Not how WE would understand it, but how his audience would have understood it.

                    You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me it looks like you have a preconceived notion of what you want to say, then you hunt up a bunch of verses to support your position.

                    Frequently, the author is actually saying what he is saying, rather than some hidden agenda.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I don't think Matthew 5:17-19 is a commandment to keep all the laws of Torah, because Jesus did not do that (at least with the Sabbath law). I see it as talking about how the moral principles behind the law remain intact.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Johnny,

                        The biggest problem I have with your "analysis" is that you seem to take a small section of Scripture, then go on a rabbit hunt to find anything else that might be related to it.

                        The FIRST thing I believe we need to do is to look at the CONTEXT of the passage in question -- not just the "verse", but the "paragraph" (other verses in that same text that are directly related to the verse or verses in question). In the case of Ephesians, we would take the letter as a whole.

                        We need to look at who is writing, to WHOM he is writing, what situation is being addressed, and how the audience to whom he is speaking would understand what he was saying. Not how WE would understand it, but how his audience would have understood it.

                        You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me it looks like you have a preconceived notion of what you want to say, then you hunt up a bunch of verses to support your position.

                        Frequently, the author is actually saying what he is saying, rather than some hidden agenda.
                        That would seem to be the case with 1 Corinthians 7:18, he's plainly saying let Jews be Jews observing full Torah, and Gentiles be Gentiles observing partial Torah, therein lies a difference don't you think?

                        I cited other verses to address the idea of breaking the partition which doesn't mean that all Jews turn into Gentiles or Gentiles into Jews, with all observing the same Torah. Rather it means that they all share in the promises of Israel.

                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        I don't think Matthew 5:17-19 is a commandment to keep all the laws of Torah, because Jesus did not do that (at least with the Sabbath law). I see it as talking about how the moral principles behind the law remain intact.
                        Jesus did otherwise he would have been a lawbreaker and rightly criticized and/or punished by Jewish authorities, and he wouldn't have fulfilled the Law either. JPH also has a page about that HERE, in summary: "But Jesus is not breaking the OT law; he is violating a "tradition of the elders" - part of the Pharasaic oral law, or code of interpretation, not the actual law."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          I am not saying how much significance we should attribute to the various details of Jesus' earthly existence. What about Jesus' humanity, would you say that Jesus is no longer human because the second person of the Trinity pre-existed humanity?
                          I would say that as Jesus' pre-existent status held no nationality, likewise his risen glorified humanity holds no nationality. We too will be like him in our glorified state and earthly matters such as race and nationality will be swallowed up in glory.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                            I would say that as Jesus' pre-existent status held no nationality, likewise his risen glorified humanity holds no nationality. We too will be like him in our glorified state and earthly matters such as race and nationality will be swallowed up in glory.
                            Why? Was his full human identity incapable of being glorified? Why must he somehow renounce elements of his human identity? Is there something bad about Jesus being Jewish?
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Why? Was his full human identity incapable of being glorified? Why must he somehow renounce elements of his human identity? Is there something bad about Jesus being Jewish?
                              It's just how I see it when I take matters into consideration. Though if I am not 100% correct here, I am OK with that.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                                It's just how I see it when I take matters into consideration. Though if I am not 100% correct here, I am OK with that.
                                Are there other aspects of Jesus' humanity that you think he must somehow renounce or relinquish? Or just his Jewishness?
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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