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The Roots of the Hebrew Roots Movement

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    I just got done quoting Paul saying that he was not under the Jewish laws. Where did Paul teach people to get circumcised or observe any Jewish laws at all?
    Combined with Acts 15 and other writings, this means that if you're a Jew keep being a Jew observing all Torah, if you're a Gentile just observe moral Torah:

    1 Corinthians 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      Exploring the Hebrew roots of Christianity is essential for understanding the history of Christianity in a much deeper way. So it depends on the intent. Exploring Hebrew roots in one's ancestry in relation to one's Christian faith is pointless IMO. And sometimes it's just flat out erroneous. There's a black Hebrew movement, for example, that asserts the true Israelites were black Africans. So it's not only wrong in some cases, but it just creates unnecessary racial/ancestral discord, much like it did in Paul's day.
      I actually agree that studying our Hebrew roots can be beneficial as stated previously by me and stated in the 'gotquestions' article. In fact one of my favorite scholars is Dr. Michael Brown and I wholeheartedly recommended most of his work. He is sound in the faith and holds to sound doctrine/Apostolic teaching, however, even he has lamented how many sects in Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots are on the brink of apostasy - if they are even in the faith at all.

      The problem with the Hebrew Roots movement is their doctrine. Hebraic Roots requires the keeping of the Jewish feasts, Torah observance, and Sabbath observance. Their layers of legalism have produced a doctrine of "salvation by works". The followers are required to keep a kosher diet and abstain from perceived pagan celebrations that Christian's observe such as Easter and Christmas. Moreover, they utterly twist the Pauline letters, and naturally some in the movement eventually come to regard Paul as a false Apostle because they realize their doctrine and Paul's is simply incompatible. You will also find a rejection of the Trinity as well as the deity of Christ amongst many of these false teachers and their converts.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        I always thought the concept of Christians getting closer to the Jewish roots of the faith was pretty neat. I've been wanting to attend a Messianic service for awhile now, but I don't believe there's any local to me. I really haven't looked into the subject much outside of a couple documentaries. A push for a Judaizing of the church has always made me a bit cautious of the Messianic movements, but having not researched it out extensively, I wasn't sure how adamant they were on stricture to the ceremonial aspects of the Law. I always assumed that there were probably some zealots out there, but that there were also those who took an evenhanded and scriptural approach to the subject...like, you could participate in the more Jewish observances, but that it was strictly voluntary, and an emphasis was put on that voluntary aspect. But, yeah, I don't know if that's the case or not. I imagine someone somewhere is doing it like that.



        Eesh. Well that's certainly something I'd want to avoid, and would serve as good reason for me to rethink the subject.

        Just curious, what got your attention about this subject Scrawly?
        I think a mature believer in Christ well grounded in the truths of Scripture, such as yourself, would quickly realize any aberrant teaching. What you might also notice are similar attitudes to the “pious” Jews (the circumcision) in Galatians 3 who looked down on the Gentiles (the uncircumcised) as ceremonially unclean, and thought of themselves as pure because of their nationality, ancestry, and their laws and ceremonies. The twist however is the majority are Gentiles who want to act as though they are Jews, through the same thinking as the pious Jews of antiquity.

        My interest developed when someone close to me got involved in the movement, at which point I started researching and interacting with the adherents.
        Last edited by Scrawly; 11-13-2014, 04:44 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
          Paul's message taken as a whole was for Jews to abide in circumcision and keep observing Torah, Gentiles to abide in uncircumcision and observe necessary moral Torah. The goal being to keep from adding to obligations since once you fully convert to become a Jew, whatever you don't do will count against you as sin. Judaizers were intent on placing that yoke on Gentiles turned to God. Eventually Paul's view dominated in Judaism since today Gentiles are encouraged to instead observe Noahide unless they can be really committed to observe all Torah.
          This view really strikes me as wrongheaded. You are portraying this as a "us" and "them". There is no more "us" and "them". We are all one in Christ - where there is no Jew nor Greek.

          "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity." (Eph. 2:14-16).

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            I actually agree that studying our Hebrew roots can be beneficial as stated previously by me and stated in the 'gotquestions' article. In fact one of my favorite scholars is Dr. Michael Brown and I wholeheartedly recommended most of his work. He is sound in the faith and holds to sound doctrine/Apostolic teaching, however, even he has lamented how many sects in Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots are on the brink of apostasy - if they are even in the faith at all.

            The problem with the Hebrew Roots movement is their doctrine. Hebraic Roots requires the keeping of the Jewish feasts, Torah observance, and Sabbath observance. Their layers of legalism have produced a doctrine of "salvation by works". The followers are required to keep a kosher diet and abstain from perceived pagan celebrations that Christian's observe such as Easter and Christmas. Moreover, they utterly twist the Pauline letters, and naturally some in the movement eventually come to regard Paul as a false Apostle because they realize their doctrine and Paul's is simply incompatible. You will also find a rejection of the Trinity as well as the deity of Christ amongst many of these false teachers and their converts.
            Yeah, there's a guy on YT that is pastor of a commune in the south that not only believes the African people are the true Israelites (therefore proclaims he's a true decedent of the Hebrew tribes, being he's black) but castigates the Christian church for its pagan influence and lack of keeping the Torah. I've tried to leave passages in the comment section where Paul repudiates the Mosaic law since he hasn't gone as far as rebuking Paul, but he just ignores it. It's weird because he believes most things about Christ that mainstream Christians do, but his criticism of Christianity is so nasty that I would assume he was either a Muslim or an atheist if I was hearing him speak for the first time.
            "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

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            • #21
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              Yeah, there's a guy on YT that is pastor of a commune in the south that not only believes the African people are the true Israelites (therefore proclaims he's a true decedent of the Hebrew tribes, being he's black) but castigates the Christian church for its pagan influence and lack of keeping the Torah. I've tried to leave passages in the comment section where Paul repudiates the Mosaic law since he hasn't gone as far as rebuking Paul, but he just ignores it. It's weird because he believes most things about Christ that mainstream Christians do, but his criticism of Christianity is so nasty that I would assume he was either a Muslim or an atheist if I was hearing him speak for the first time.
              That's something I've noticed about "fringe" Christian groups that spend more time attacking "mainstream" Christianity than actually promoting what Christianity is about. Yes, there is much that needs to be pointed out in lukewarm modern Laodicea, but if it becomes indistinguishable from atheism like you say, I have to question how profitable the approach is.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #22
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Yeah, there's a guy on YT that is pastor of a commune in the south that not only believes the African people are the true Israelites (therefore proclaims he's a true decedent of the Hebrew tribes, being he's black) but castigates the Christian church for its pagan influence and lack of keeping the Torah. I've tried to leave passages in the comment section where Paul repudiates the Mosaic law since he hasn't gone as far as rebuking Paul, but he just ignores it. It's weird because he believes most things about Christ that mainstream Christians do, but his criticism of Christianity is so nasty that I would assume he was either a Muslim or an atheist if I was hearing him speak for the first time.
                Yeah, the documentarian Louis Theroux ran into a group of black "Israelites" like that too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...-DzzFWY#t=1361

                They're completely nutso. I don't think they have much to do with the Messianic movement or Jews for Jesus or anything like that. Its just a black version of the Klan that are finding unity in some shared underwritten ideology that's pseudo spiritual. Reminds me of Rastafarianism in a lot of ways.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Yeah, the documentarian Louis Theroux ran into a group of black "Israelites" like that too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...-DzzFWY#t=1361

                  They're completely nutso. I don't think they have much to do with the Messianic movement or Jews for Jesus or anything like that. Its just a black version of the Klan that are finding unity in some shared underwritten ideology that's pseudo spiritual. Reminds me of Rastafarianism in a lot of ways.
                  It's not the same group. The group I'm talking about isn't that racially radical.
                  "What am I doing here?" -- Joe Biden 2021

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Black Israelites are hilarious. You can find a ton of black Israelite videos on youtube, they're good for a couple hours entertainment if you have no life:

                    (language warning for all of them)
                    Black Israelites vs pasty Jewish guy. An already entertaining round of victimhood olympics turns even more amusing when the black guy starts shouting "heil hitler" and the Jewish guy starts crying because he made fun of the holocaust.
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgcrtvomXoI

                    Black Israelites vs butthurt feminist. Feminist violates their personal space, so they push her away and she falls. She starts crying and the police show up and arrest her.
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHzGiGUj5SU

                    "So leave us alone, let us preach the downfall of you people."

                    Black on Black. It's hard to comprehend but apparently the Black Israelites appear to be upset that some other black guy mixes up with black africans (or something).
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVAth2PAWGA
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      He says that Christians should not observe Jewish dietary laws, or Jewish holidays. Other than the animal sacrifices on non-holidays, I would say that those two categories pretty much encompass the whole ceremonial law.
                      Purity laws, for one.

                      What do you find problematic about the distinction between ceremonial law and moral law? Paul said that he was not under the Jewish law, but was still under Christ's law.
                      Paul doesn't use these distinctions to argue that those in Christ do not need to follow the Mosaic Law.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yes that is exactly what he argues. And I don't know what you mean by "purity laws." Do you mean the "divers washings"?

                        Hebrews 9:10
                        which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

                        And again, the abolition of holidays that involved washing pretty clearly implies that other lesser forms of washing should also be done away with. Likewise, the abolition of "unclean" foods tends to imply that any other "purity law" would go out the window.
                        Last edited by Obsidian; 11-14-2014, 02:53 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          Yes that is exactly what he argues. And I don't know what you mean by "purity laws." Do you mean the "divers washings"?
                          That, as well as laws such as not wearing clothing made of two different materials.

                          Yes that is exactly what he argues.
                          Do show where Paul invokes the categories of 'ceremonial' or 'moral' laws.

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                          • #28
                            What do you think "law of Christ" means, if not the moral law?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              What do you think "law of Christ" means, if not the moral law?
                              The law of the Spirit.

                              Come now, even if I don't know what "law of Christ" means, there is no reason for me to accept your interpretation of it as "the moral law" unless you give me a cogent one.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I already told you that the law of Christ refers to the moral law, aka the ceremonial law. You are the only one who seems to have trouble with that. And I don't even know what you mean by "the law of the Spirit." I believe that the phrase only appears once in the Bible, and it isn't literally talking about any kind of law.

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