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The Day John Loftus Quit A Video Debate

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  • The Day John Loftus Quit A Video Debate

    First and foremost, hello to you all. I'm glad to see this is finally up and running again. I am a very old lurker from the old forum. Do you guys know if Holding frequents this resurrected board? On to my subject title:

    I've watched the recent debate between Max Mills (Christian apologist and founder of "A Debate Show Without An Interesting Name") and John Loftus (the popular student-turned-atheist of William Craig and founder of debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com) numerous times. The subject was whether or not the Bible condones animal cruelty, and it resulted in a very telling lopsided victory for Max Mills.

    Max Mills, in a mere 45 minutes smashes through an argument from Loftus which contains logic parallel to some of Loftus' other arguments against God. Loftus wielded Genesis 1 as if Mills would immediately buckle under the pressure, however Mills refuted it quite easily. Mills suggests that we view God's statement as a blessing, rather than an evil commandment. Loftus' response was... interesting.. to say the least. He became observably angrily evasive and annoyingly repetitive. His immediate response to Mills is that "well, other Christian authors disagree" (22:28 and 16:20 in the debate) without giving an in-context grounding for that. Let's just forget the in-context grounding, though. Loftus is knocking on the door of a strange appeal to authority with that sort of response. Mills even points out at 22:40 that it's an argument from popularity. It is immediately after that when Loftus starts to unravel mentally and physically.

    One other very important part of the debate was animal sacrifice. Loftus says it is "brutal" and "unnecessary". Loftus again threw this out there as if he wielded a nail-in-the-coffin against the Bible. Mills surprised him by actually using biblical sacrifice as an argument for the Bible showing concern for animals. He pointed out that sacrifice is "how they [Hebrews] slaughtered their meat". Max educated Loftus on a process of butchering animals which involved taking it to an altar, being supervised, and it being a must for you to kill the animal yourself. 'Obviously, this is a million miles ahead of the way we slaughter animals today', Mills basically pointed out. And Mills, then, topped the sweet refutation off with Lev. 17:10-11, which speaks of banning the consumption of blood because "the life of the animal is in the blood". Loftus responded with the same. He was observably uneasy, very repetitive, and very angry (especially towards the end). You can see those traits flowing from him while he tried to depend on a very irrelevant "life force was a magical force" defense (19:11 in the video).
    At 42:35 you see Loftus just exasperating, "I'm done here", goes off on a literal rant and quits the debate with a cowardly ad hominem at 43:38. This bit of the debate was very unprofessional on Loftus' part. I'm apt to consider Loftus' behavior as outright cowardly.
    It's a very easy victory for the Bible thanks to Max Mills rushing at a subject that many Christians are very uneasy about defending. Cheers to Max Mills!
    I expect Loftus to try to sweep this under the rug and do his best to hide it from everyone (including William Craig), whom Loftus constantly challenges. It appears to me that Max Mills [may have] also showed us that Loftus contains a very emotional grounds or foundation for his disbelief. It's something Craig suspects is true, which is why I hope this finds its way towards Craig's eyes.


  • #2
    Originally posted by Strawman View Post
    First and foremost, hello to you all.
    Hello to you too.

    I'm glad to see this is finally up and running again.
    As am I. Glad you decided to catch it.

    I am a very old lurker from the old forum. Do you guys know if Holding frequents this resurrected board?
    Yes, he does. He's even wandered out of the Tektonics subforum and into Civics 101.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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    • #3
      Loftus has not improved his knowledge, his understanding or his logic since leaving TWeb it seems.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #4
        Loftus is a man-child, and sounds a lot like he writes. Also, maybe its just me, but he sounds a bit intoxicated in that video. Glad to see he's not wearing the wide brimmed hat anymore. That was a bad look for him. If memory serves, he lives like 40 minutes from me over in Ft. Wayne, IN (my grandmother has a farm there), and has some sort of weekly free thinker meet up (sort of like church for atheists or something). I've thought of popping in just to see what they get up to, but then figured it probably wouldn't be a very good use of my time.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Also, maybe its just me, but he sounds a bit intoxicated in that video.
          I haven't watched it but that wouldn't be surprising, he's shown up obviously drunk to a debate before.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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          • #6
            Hey, guys. Well, I try to keep up with sites like Loftus' Debunking Christianity blog and Luke Muehlhauser's Common Sense Atheism. It's good to keep in touch where the opposing side is at. But, I expected much more from Loftus.. I will not be keeping up with his material anymore. I believe he was a bit buzzed in that video.

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            • #7
              I'm watching it now, but I have a tendency to vicariously feel embarrassed for people (read: Loftus) so this is going to be rough going.

              Comment


              • #8
                I couldn't follow the dialogue but I assume Lotus was the one with the cap?
                Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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                • #9
                  Oh, there's no question Loftus has emotional grounds for his unbelief. He ran afoul of the commandment "thou shalt not commit adultery."
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                  • #10
                    Someone just advised me to join this board and cool, my debate is here.

                    While he was like... totally crazy, I wish I had not gotten frustrated at the end, I think it would have provided a stronger contrast if I had maintained total politeness/professionalism even while he was going nuts the entire debate. I was just so caught off guard

                    In any case, I published my arguments on the subject here, if anyone is interested:
                    http://www.christianapologeticsallia...biblical-view/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      When he was on TWeb he often demonstrated an amazing failure of both understanding and knowledge of scripture. I won't watch the debate, but none of the comments here surprise me. Whan faced with a post he could not answer he would just ignore it. That does not work so well on a televised forum.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Max Mills View Post
                        Someone just advised me to join this board and cool, my debate is here.

                        While he was like... totally crazy, I wish I had not gotten frustrated at the end, I think it would have provided a stronger contrast if I had maintained total politeness/professionalism even while he was going nuts the entire debate. I was just so caught off guard

                        In any case, I published my arguments on the subject here, if anyone is interested:
                        http://www.christianapologeticsallia...biblical-view/
                        Welcome to Tweb! I hope you like it here!
                        O Gladsome Light of the Holy Glory of the Immortal Father, Heavenly, Holy, Blessed Jesus Christ! Now that we have come to the setting of the sun and behold the light of evening, we praise God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For meet it is at all times to worship Thee with voices of praise. O Son of God and Giver of Life, therefore all the world doth glorify Thee.

                        A neat video of dead languages!

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